DAT-Heads Digest #920
Contents:
Recording resolution: this time the facts (Jesse Lackey)
Compression & Remote Correction ("\"Darling\" Denise")
Spokane, Washington taper needed ("frankn1@innernet.net")
Bad CDR's (CosmicKC@aol.com)
re: Recommendations for a CD-R ("Marc Nutter")
No Subject (Danctil22@aol.com)
Looking for various shows (AGerst1574@aol.com)
Help my unload my DATs (TT)
Re: ~~GoodBear AUD 4/25+26/77 Tree~~ ("Teddy GoodBear")
stereo microphone - cabling problem - need your help ("'Bebop' Pete Heilig")
Looking for shows from Tramps 95/96 (AGerst1574@aol.com)
Sony DTC-55ES info required ("David Price")
PHIL and FRIENDS TREE UPDATE (ChinaDolll@aol.com)
From: Jesse Lackey <jesse@celestialaudio.com>
Subject: Recording resolution: this time the facts
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 03:44:36 -0400
> I believe you're confusing dynamic range with resolution. A 16 bit (linear
> or nonlinear) digitized recording with -12 dB below 0 dB dynamic peaks IS
> STILL A RECORDING WITH 16 BIT RESOLUTION and has all the important signal
> details that 16 bit digitization can provide in audio fidelity.
No. Wrong. At least for linear encoding. Think about it: if your signal
stays within the range of the lower 14 bits of a 16 bit converter, you are
recording 14 bits of data and two zero bits. There is no difference between
this situation and recording the signal with peaks at 0db on a 14-bit recorder.
How about an extreme example: I have a 128-bit recorder, but the recording
level is such that it peaks at (128 - 14) * -6db/bit = -684db. Do I have the
details of 128 bit conversion? Of course not. I have 14 bits of signal and
114 bits all zero. A 14-bit recording.
Have you seen graphs of S/N ratios of A/D converters as plotted vs. input
scale? It gets worse as the input gets smaller. Why do you think all A/D
converters have S/N specifications for 0db input? because that's where the
best S/N is. And that is how they are intended to be used.
> The fact is, being conservative in setting VU peaks at about -12 dB VU on
> most portable decks is a benefit in reducing overall IM distortions as the
> voltage rails of the analog processing circuits 'brickwall' at just above the
> 0 dB VU mark. Pushing average VU levels above -12 dB VU on such decks causes
> a non-linearity distortion that gets worse the closer the analog signal gets
> to the supply rails.
if this happens you have a poorly engineered DAT deck. The loss in quality
due to two bits thrown away each sample will be overwhelmingly worse than the
IM distortions on any sanely engineered deck. And who says that the input
range of the A/D equals the supply rails? It could certainly be smaller.
> I would recommend being conservative in setting VU levels with portable decks
> in general. Later normalization in wav file format allows bringing up
> digitized volume levels with no real quality liability. Turning up the
> volume control for listening is not that big a deal.
And I recommend exactly the opposite: use all 16 (or 20, or 24) bits when
recording. Normalization later will cause a slight quality loss, but is
unnecessary for properly recorded, predictable material. Do not be
concerned with having a few "overs" due to percussion - you will not hear it.
Do be concerned with overs for other things, especially piano and vocals.
The only time to record with peaks at -12dB is if you have really NO idea
what the performance will be like, and want to accurately capture all
possibilities. (or I suppose in a stealth situation, where you can't
check the meters occasionally)
Jesse
--
Jesse Lackey, Ithaca, NY my personal page: http://www.lightlink.com/jesse
From: "\"Darling\" Denise" <virtualart@mindspring.com>
Subject: Compression & Remote Correction
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 03:57:06 -0700
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Dylan wrote:
>However, it sounds like that you are confusing dynamic=20
>compression with data compression. MP3 files don't sound as good as=20
>uncompressed PCM audio as MP3 and MiniDisc use a frequency-masking =
algorithm=20
>in order to save on file space, therefore, the sound quality is =
dramatically=20
>reduced. All that dynamic compression does is minimize the dynamic =
range and=20
>does have any thing to do with data compression.=20
>Thanks,
>Dylan
....Hello All....>>DOUG<< here. I was off for a few days ( Computer =
upgrade)
Yes Dylan you are correct, but all of the compression has the same =
result,
data or dynamic. The high end & clarity of the recording is muted. I =
know when I
record a Mini-Disc from optic,,,on Cd's that have a great clear mix like =
instrumental
Jazz you don't hear much loss of quality. But with Rock, because of the =
"loudness"
desired....engineers over use compression. As a result, by the time it =
gets
to the airways , satellite, radio or internet it gets squashed again! =
Data or dynamic
the less you use on your finished product the better it'll sound =
-Mini-Disc,MP3,
& airways. DAT CD & CPU 16Bit is excluded because you are in the =
"professional
quality" formats. Just compression on these formats do not sound bad.
But engineers tend to forget about Radio/satellite/Mp 3/Mini-Disc =
formats that
a majority of people listen to. I think that Mini-Disc sounds WAY better =
than
the MP 3's but depending upon the recording I do notice if the original =
source
DAT or CD has used a healthy dose of "smooth compression" to me as an
artist it sounds flat!
****REMOTE CORRECTION****** I was able to go to one of my wholesale
electronic suppliers & have confirmed that "Universal" & "Denon" DO NOT
have SLEEP TIMERS!!! I assumed they did because the "One For ALL 8"
does & it is the one I have! You can get it at www.jandr.com I am not =
sure
about the programming of DATs but I'll let you know after I try it on =
mine.
As a universal I am very happy with it, I sugessted the others because =
they
have the LEARN feature which would work for great for the different =
brands of
DAT's..... *C* Ya ! Doug blazzze@mindspring.com
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<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
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<DIV>Dylan wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>>However, it sounds like that you are confusing dynamic=20
<BR>>compression with data compression. MP3 files don't sound as good =
as=20
<BR>>uncompressed PCM audio as MP3 and MiniDisc use a =
frequency-masking=20
algorithm <BR>>in order to save on file space, therefore, the sound =
quality=20
is dramatically <BR>>reduced. All that dynamic compression does is =
minimize=20
the dynamic range and <BR>>does have any thing to do with data =
compression.=20
<BR><BR>>Thanks,<BR><BR>>Dylan</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>....Hello All....>>DOUG<< here. I was off for a few =
days (=20
Computer upgrade)</DIV>
<DIV>Yes Dylan you are correct, but all of the compression has the same=20
result,</DIV>
<DIV>data or dynamic. The high end & clarity of the =
recording is=20
muted. I know when I</DIV>
<DIV>record a Mini-Disc from optic,,,on Cd's that have a great clear mix =
like=20
instrumental</DIV>
<DIV>Jazz you don't hear much loss of quality. But with Rock, because of =
the=20
"loudness"</DIV>
<DIV>desired....engineers over use compression. As a result, by the time =
it=20
gets</DIV>
<DIV> to the airways , satellite, radio or internet it gets =
squashed again!=20
Data or dynamic</DIV>
<DIV>the less you use on your finished product the better it'll sound=20
-Mini-Disc,MP3,</DIV>
<DIV>& airways. DAT CD & CPU 16Bit is excluded because you are =
in the=20
"professional</DIV>
<DIV>quality" formats. Just compression on these formats do not sound =
bad.</DIV>
<DIV>But engineers tend to forget about Radio/satellite/Mp 3/Mini-Disc =
formats=20
that</DIV>
<DIV>a majority of people listen to. I think that Mini-Disc sounds WAY =
better=20
than</DIV>
<DIV>the MP 3's but depending upon the recording I do notice if the =
original=20
source</DIV>
<DIV>DAT or CD has used a healthy dose of "smooth compression" to me as =
an</DIV>
<DIV>artist it sounds flat!</DIV>
<DIV> ****REMOTE CORRECTION****** I was able to =
go to=20
one of my wholesale</DIV>
<DIV>electronic suppliers & have confirmed that "Universal" & =
"Denon" DO=20
NOT</DIV>
<DIV>have SLEEP TIMERS!!! I assumed they did because the "One For ALL =
8"</DIV>
<DIV>does & it is the one I have! You can get it at <A=20
href=3D"http://www.jandr.com">www.jandr.com</A> I am not sure</DIV>
<DIV>about the programming of DATs but I'll let you know after I try it =
on=20
mine.</DIV>
<DIV>As a universal I am very happy with it, I sugessted the others =
because=20
they</DIV>
<DIV>have the LEARN feature which would work for great for the different =
brands=20
of</DIV>
<DIV>DAT's..... *C* Ya ! Doug <A=20
href=3D"mailto:blazzze@mindspring.com">blazzze@mindspring.com</A></DIV></=
BODY></HTML>
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From: "frankn1@innernet.net" <frankn1@innernet.net>
Subject: Spokane, Washington taper needed
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 05:54:40 -0400
Hi-
Are there any tapers that tape in Spokane, Washington? There are two
shows coming here in May that I would love find tapes of. Please email
me and let me know if anyone can help out. Thanks.
Frank
frankn1@innernet.net
From: CosmicKC@aol.com
Subject: Bad CDR's
Reply-To: CosmicKC@aol.com
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 10:28:43 EDT
I just wanted to thank everyone that responded to my posts about the bad
Mitsui's and HHb disc's that I have encountered. So far 3 discs have
developed little holes on the top side of the disc. Remember that this is
the side you usually write on or put a label on. This is also the side where
your dye is at. After doing some tests on some of these disc's I have
discovered that it is very easy to scratch this layer off. In fact running a
ball point pen over it will ruin the disc completely. I feel the bottom line
is you need to label your disc's or find a different type of CDR. Remember I
am talking about Mitsui's and HHb's here. This is the only type of disc that
I have ever used. So far I have done about 200 burns and had 3 disc's go bad
on me. Also, I have never used any solvents, non-cdr pens, placed disc's in
extreme heat or handled them in anyway that would abuse them. They have been
placed in case-logic albums. I suspect that these disc's where defective
from the beginning, but they did burn and play fine. In fact it has been 3
months since they were created. As for label suggestions. The kind people
at Neato labels claim that their labels are Cdr. safe. They also claim that
they are perfectly balanced for Cdr.'s and will not affect jitter or
tracking. So they say.
In a final thought, be sure to save your DAT's as backup and trade the hell
out of you masters. It may be the only way to preserve your precious
recordings.
Kelly
From: "Marc Nutter" <sncsns@henge.com>
Subject: re: Recommendations for a CD-R
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 10:25:45 -0600
>From: William Dennehy <bix1@earthlink.net
>Subject: Recommendations for a CD-R
>Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 07:14:17 -0700
>I'm thinking of buying a CD-R. Any recommendations? I don't need a top
>of the line, just something decent. Thanks, Bill
Hi Bill and All,
As an authorized dealer for major manufacturer's of CD-Recorders,
we have first hand experience with the popular units from HHB, Marantz, and
Tascam.
Please feel free to give us a call with any questions you have regarding
these units.
I look forward to helping with all of your recording needs.
Marc
Marc Nutter
Sonic Sense
P.O. Box 61141
Denver, CO 80206
(303) 698-1296
http://www.henge.com/~sncsns
From: Danctil22@aol.com
Subject: No Subject
Reply-To: Danctil22@aol.com
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 12:33:59 EDT
Hey now,
If anyone out there is going to tape Gordon Gano at the Wetlands on Mon.,
Could you please get in touch with me? I would really appreciate it. Thanks a
lot!!!
peace
matt
From: AGerst1574@aol.com
Subject: Looking for various shows
Reply-To: AGerst1574@aol.com
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 14:08:21 EDT
I am looking for the following:
1) The recent Bruce boot "Down In The Vault"
2) Any recent Cracker (preferably the Bowery Ballroom shows from 3/99
3) Neil Young from MSG Theatre 4/22/99
Thanks,
Adam
From: TT <TT@Mediahound.net>
Subject: Help my unload my DATs
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 11:31:03 -0700
I'm looking to get rid of my DAT collection (either trade for CDRs,
or sell). Please see my list at:
http://www.mediahound.net/cdr
Thanks!
From: "Teddy GoodBear" <GoodBear@GeoCities.com>
Subject: Re: ~~GoodBear AUD 4/25+26/77 Tree~~
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 15:12:49 -0400
I'm getting a kick out of all these comments that people are putting on the
sign-up form, that I put these responses on our page at:
http://www.goodbear.com/critics1.html
Over 150 signups the 1st few hours, so hurry before you get shut out!
Teddy :^) http://www.goodbear.com Teddy@NoSpamGoodBear.com
Home of AUD trees: http://www.goodbear.com/tree.html
AUD only Tree(s) coming on 4/24: GD 4/25+26/77 is Batch #1
NEW: AUD only Tree(s) Coming Soon! GD 5/1+28/77 is Batch #2
NEW: AUD only Tree(s) Coming Soon! GD 5/3+4/77 may be Batch #3
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/goodbear/1965setlists.html
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/goodbear/1966setlists.html
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/goodbear/1967setlists.html
Art Pages: http://www.pompano.net/~goodbear
From: "'Bebop' Pete Heilig" <bebop@imagine.com>
Subject: stereo microphone - cabling problem - need your help
Reply-To: <bebop@imagine.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 15:17:51 -0400
Ladies & Gentlemen,
If i could take a moment to ask you a question regarding a cable which is
being used to connect a Stereo microphone to a DAT-recorder. Perhaps
someone here can comment on the source of the problem.
The problem is... handling the cable is creating an unwanted noise in the
signal. Any flexing of the cable causes a sound to be heard by the DAT
recorder. How is it possible that a shock to the cable can produce an
scratching noise? I am now faced with replacing this cable assembly to
correct the problem.
There are 5 conductors out of the stereo mic... Left hot, Left cold, Right
hot, Right cold, and Shield ground.
There are 3 conductors into the DAT's stereo 1/8" jack.... Left, Right,
and Ground.
I have connected these through a cable (using a 5-pin XLR to a 3-pin
1/8"-stereo-male). The cable is 6-feet in length, 3-conductor cable,
stranded copper, which was from a generic audio cable (perhaps a headphone
cable). So this is an unbalanced stereo cable run.
Microphone-out: DAT-mic-in:
Left-hot ------------ Left
Left-cold
Right-hot ------------ Right
Right-cold
Ground ------------ Ground
Is there any problem with this schematic?
My question is... Is this cable picking up this noise because of improper
shielding? (and if so, what type of bulk microphone cable is recommended?)
Or is the cable picking up this noise because it's an Unbalanced circuit?
(and if so, what is recommended schematic for a balanced stereo cable?)
any help from the knowledgeable people is appreciated,
-bebop Pete.
From: AGerst1574@aol.com
Subject: Looking for shows from Tramps 95/96
Reply-To: AGerst1574@aol.com
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 15:51:44 EDT
Several years ago I posted here that I was looking for a show with Tom
Verlaine from Tramps around 1995 or 1996 and another show with Joe Gruchesky
from Tramps in 1995 where Bruce Springsteen played guitar. Someone responded
back to me who had both of these shows and unfortunately I was out of town
and was never able to get it together. If that person is out there I would
still really like these shows particularly the Tom Verlaine. If anyone else
has these, please e-mail me.
Thanks,
Adam
From: "David Price" <davidj.price@virgin.net>
Subject: Sony DTC-55ES info required
Reply-To: "David Price" <davidj.price@virgin.net>
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 20:21:31 +0100
Hi Guys,
Anyone have experience with this machine? Good or bad? Reliable? How much
second-hand? Also, anyone know the control codes - it would be interesting
to find out how to display the number of hours on the heads?
thanks
David.
From: ChinaDolll@aol.com
Subject: PHIL and FRIENDS TREE UPDATE
Reply-To: ChinaDolll@aol.com
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 16:51:46 EDT
Okay, for starters, this tree is so huge that with in the first 36
hours I had about 600 sign-ups. There is a bunch of things that need to be
cleared up right off the bat, and issues that should be addressed based on
your comments. First off all, a bunch of people wrote that they hope they
get in, or are not turned away. I don't know where this idea came from, but
rest assured, if you sign up you will be on this tree. Secondly, I can't
begin to tell you how many people wrote. " I request that you make me a top
branch so I can get these sooner", or things to that effect. All I can say to
that is don't even bother writing this because it will do you no good. When
the final structure will be made it will be based on first come deal,
equipment, and the number of kids you requested. Others have requested if I
would do trade on the side. This will not happen period. It would not be fair
to the other people on the tree. Geeze, I sound like a dictator or something.
I am sorry but, I have a huge responsibility here, and I have one objective
in mind and that is to do what is best for the tree, to make it go as smooth
and as quickly as possible.
Okay on to other things: The most frequently asked question was when will I
get my tapes, or how quickly will this thing move. The answer is simple. It
depends on how quickly the branches move. I will do my part and get the
seeds to the branches A.S.A.P. The other thing is if you are ordering blank
media. I recommend with all my heart and soul, that you guys use Masterpiece
A/V. They are the best when it comes time to ship. They will 99.99999% of
the time ship the day you order it, and besides they have the BEST prices.
The last time I checked their website Blank Maxell XL2 90min tapes were only
.89 a tape. Blank Sony DG60Ps are only $3.14 and they have blank cd-rs cheap
too. I am sure they will be glad to help you with any questions you may have
(super friendly guys there). The phone number there is toll free
1-888-462-7828. Please PLEASE PLEASE, don't wait till the last minute to
order blank media. It would be a shame if the tree was held up because
people had to wait till blanks came.
Next order of biz, There was a few requests for a VHS leaf. With the
number of beginners on this tree I feel I must explain that a VHS copy of
this is not a VIDEO with visual picture. It is an audio dub on to hi-fi
(stereo) VHS tape. The benefit of this over its cassette counterpart is that
one it is longer, no tape flips, cuts, and the sound is a tad better. I love
when people tell me it sounds as good as DAT or any other digital media and
they can't tell any generational loss between hi-fi dubs. Wrong! It may
sound better and be a better media than cassette, however it is still an
analog recording. Meaning there will be a loss between the master and the
copy. But YES, if you signed up for an analog leaf can request to change it
to VHS. All the people that have already requested to be DAT>VHS or a VHS
leaf will be on a VHS branch of the tree.
Next, (if you are an experienced tree person disregard this paragraph).
There were a lot of first time tree people on this tree so here is the super
short and abridged tree guide. The way a tree works is that you all sign up.
I take the sign ups and put them into a structure. This structure will
explain who makes copies for who. The person that you make copies for is
called your kid or leaf, and the person who makes copies for you is called
your parent or branch. It is your job to contact your parent. In general,
the parent is not responsible for contacting you. Sometimes they will, but
again it is your responsibility. Also the general rule of thumbs is that if
you work out a trade with your parent or child you both pay your own way in
shipping. If you work out a B & P then the person who sends the blanks also
sends return postage. There is no 2 for 1 deals, or anything of that nature
whatsoever. If your parent is requesting anything else besides an equal
trade or equal amounts of blanks and postage then please notify me right
away, and they will be lashed with a wet noodle.
Okay, Any questions that you all may have will be answered but please be
patient. I am up to my neck in sign ups and it seems a lot of you all have
questions or requests.
Of more importance, I will be ending sign-ups early. As soon as it slows
down I will end it. Maybe April 26th or 27th. I will be contacting some
of the branch leaders before that time to make it go quicker. Also there
will be a out of the U.S. branch on this tree as well. So if you forgot to
mention that you are in Europe or elsewhere please let me know. *****If you
are asking me any questions please tell me in your emailed question what you
signed up for. ***** And if you could email me on what day you sent your
sign-up form. I think that is it for now, thanks and I will keep you all
posted again soon.
Jordan Jacobs
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