DAT-Heads Digest #930
Contents:
Re: M1 renumber problem (Dennis Bathory-Kitsz)
upcoming philly gig (brian)
ISO Curtis Mayfield (brian)
Samson Mixpad-4 Mixer (carlos martinez)
new Pearl Jam soundboards (willard robinson)
Sony Outlets (Todd Guite)
Re: Bits and resolution, yet again....... ("sbt")
No digital content (Daniel E Sisler)
Europe tapers - Garbage dates (Bill Shaw)
Re: M1 renumber problem (Seth Breidbart)
extras to trade or b/p (Chris Wallace)
Couple of requests (alex coluzzi)
Chico, CA heads, May 7th - Cool Water Canyon@ your house! (pkmin@rsc.rockwell.com)
Re: ~~GoodBear AUD 4/25+26/77 Tree~~ ("Teddy GoodBear")
16 bits, 14 bits, whatever (Jean-Luc Bruyelle)
Re: Samson MX-4 (swsmith@ix.netcom.com)
From: Dennis Bathory-Kitsz <bathory@maltedmedia.com>
Subject: Re: M1 renumber problem
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 09:26:28 -0400
At 02 15 04 30 1999 EDT, Jim Kish <jkish@mind.net> wrote:
>From: Jim Kish <jkish@mind.net>
>Subject: M1 renumber problem
>Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:58:48 -0700
>
>I've had a few instances of my M1 acting up during the renumbering process
>after assigning track IDs. At certain points on the tapes it will shut
>down, read "unload", then "load" and refuses to continue renumbering. It
>has attempted to eat two tapes doing this. Has anyone else had this happen?
Yup, I have the M1, I have the problem, but I have no solution. If anyone
else has one, I'd appreciate it as well. My unit has never eaten tapes, but
it's sometimes taken several renumber attempts to get through them all --
and sometimes it even misses closely-spaced ID marks. The only common
factor seems to be IDs that are close together. But I've only renumbered a
very few tapes, so I can't be sure if that's true.
Dennis
From: brian <misterb@hilarious.com>
Subject: upcoming philly gig
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:47:59 +0100
Attention all Paddy Dat-heads...
There is a great triple bill coming to town. Someone's GOT to tape it.
The place should be rocking!
Fri June 18th Philadelphia,
PA Electric Factory
With Shane McGowan and the Popes
Saw Doctors
And Hothouse Flowers
PLEASE contact me if you can get to the show. I'd even help someone out
with the ticket, if necessary...
cheers,
brian
From: brian <misterb@hilarious.com>
Subject: ISO Curtis Mayfield
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:53:42 +0100
Any decent recordings out there?
lots to trade, or b&p
cheers,
brian
From: carlos martinez <carlmart@centroin.com.br>
Subject: Samson Mixpad-4 Mixer
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 10:53:16 -0300 (EST)
>Does anyone use the Samson Mixpad-4 Mixer? I'm considering one as an
alternative to a more pricy pre-amp/A/D. Does anyone have any
experiences with this unit? Pros or cons? Does it provide Phantom
power for mics? really, ANY info would be GREATLY appretiated.
Trying to get fairly decent rig set up before the summer concerts
start.
I bought a Mixpad4 some months ago, along with a Beachtek passive preamp.
They were more or less the same price: less than $200. I think it was $175
at B & H.
The Samson packs a lot of things, but has some limitations. It provides
phantom power, but up to 18v or less, so that limits your mic choices
somehow. Even if the excellent AKG mikes can take that. And has two
balanced mic inputs, which is very important.
If you look at it more as a preamp than a mixer, then it's alright. You
have most of the things a 2-mic preamp will give you and some more. But
it's not as sophisticated as those. Size I don't know, though they are
probably the same. It's light though.
The Samson is not small, and was designed to be used hanging from your
shoulder or on a table, mostly the latter.
Only critics: the three 9v battery layout is a pain for putting/removing
batteries; preamps sounds a little bit noisy (though it's probably better
than others and would be fine for condenser mikes); the peak level
indicator is worthless.
But for the money you can't get much better.
Though I wonder if Mixpad is really made for stealth work. You can't pack
it as other preamps, velcroing say a D8 + preamp in one unit, because the
Samson's buttons are on the top. Try one before you buy it.
In spite of all these comments I do recommend it. For the price there is
nothing close to it on the market, and it should improve on the D8 preamp.
Good luck!
Carlos
From: willard robinson <willr@star.net>
Subject: new Pearl Jam soundboards
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 22:06:18 -0400
I have just recieved two new soundboards from the recent PJ
tour.
7/22/98 - seattle (seems to be a matrix mix - may be in-house fm)
7/2/98 - st Louis (seems to be a true soundboard - possibly leaked by the
band)
Am looking in particular for Afghan Whigs shows I don't have (new european
shows).
List
www.star.net/People/~willr/dat-list.txt
tc
Will
From: Todd Guite <direwolf@maine.rr.com>
Subject: Sony Outlets
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 10:13:28 -0400
Thanks for all help,now does anyone have adresses?Thanks for bandwith,I
am looking for any in New England,I think there is one in Mass?Todd
From: "sbt" <sbtyrole@interpath.com>
Subject: Re: Bits and resolution, yet again.......
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 10:17:19 -0400
been very loosely (due to time constraints) following this argument: is
recording 16 bits at -12db equivalent to recording 14 bits at 0db. I think
both positions (yes or no) are correct depending on how you interpret the
test case. As often happens, I think people are arguing about different
things. It seems to me that the understanding is important, not the
semantics. Maybe if this thing is taken to very elementary terms, a simple
example will make the concept clearer:
take a 3 bit analog to digital converter (ADC) calibrated to convert 0-8 v.
bits voltage range
---- -------------
000 0.00V 0.99V
001 1.00V 1.99V
010 2.00V 2.99V
011 3.00V 3.99V
100 4.00V 4.99V
101 5.00V 5.99V
110 6.00V 6.99V
111 7.00V 7.99V
as you can see, if my max voltage is never above 3.99, I never use the most
significant bit:
000 0.00V 0.99V
001 1.00V 1.99V
010 2.00V 2.99V
011 3.00V 3.99V
^
|
|------- msb all 0's
Now if I were to use a **2** bit ADC, and calibrate it to encode voltages
between 0-4V, it would be the same as the 3 bit ADC calibrated for 0-8 V
with an input that never exceeded 4V.
bits voltage range
---- -------------
00 0.00V 0.99V
01 1.00V 1.99V
10 2.00V 2.99V
11 3.00V 3.99V
In this setup, the premise is correct.
However, if I take that 2 bit ADC, but leave the calibration the same
(0-8V), but only feed the input a Max of 4 volts, the resolution is inferior
to that of the 3 bit ADC.
bits voltage range
---- -------------
00 0.00V 1.99V
01 2.00V 3.99V
10 4.00V 5.99V
11 6.00V 7.99V
In this case, feeding 3V to the 3 bit ADC encodes to 011. this gets decoded
out to 3V. However, if I feed 3V to the 2 bit ADC which is calibrated to the
same voltage range, 01 gets encoded which decodes out to 2V. In this setup,
the 3 bit ADC has a potential quantization error of 1V, the 2 bit ADC has a
potential quantization error of 2V.
Taking this example back to the DAT realm. My analog is very rusty, so this
may be off. I'll use dB, but as I recall, a decibel is not a numerical
value, but a ratio. In the case of voltage, dB = 20 Log V(input)/V(output).
This is where you get an increase of 6db = doubling the voltage (20 Log 2 =
6 <approximately>) . When we talk about dB with respect to DAT (or any
numerically valued level), I think there is an implicit reference yielding a
numerical value, but I don't know what that is.
Anyway, Going from 0db to -12dB is reducing by a factor of 4, which is the
same as 2 bits (2^2 = 4). That is, each bit corresponds to a doubling of
voltage (6dB). If you take a DAT with a 16 bit converter calibrated to 0db
and record in a range of silence to -12dB, this is identical to a DAT with
14 bit converter calibrated to the range of silence and -12dB). However if
you take a DAT and replace the 16 bit converter with a 14 bit converter, but
the converter ranges are identical, even if your inputs never exceed -12dB,
the 14 bit DAT will have inferior quantization distortion.
In conclusion, everybody is correct, they're just looking at the problem
differently.
- steve
From: Daniel E Sisler <Daniel.E.Sisler@marshmc.com>
Subject: No digital content
Date: 30 Apr 1999 15:36:58 Z
Anyone out there in digi land trading GD/JGB videos? if so, drop me a
line...peace, dan
(thanks for the space and sorry for the lack of digital/dead content)
From: Bill Shaw <bshaw@skyway.com>
Subject: Europe tapers - Garbage dates
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 09:24:48 -0700
In case some of you Euro-tapers are into GARBAGE and haven't seen the dates for
their upcoming mini-tour, here they are:
19 May 99 Libro Festival - Vienna, Austria
20 May 99 Aini Stadion Slavie - Prague, Czeck Rupblic
21 May 99 Rock Im Park - Nurnberg, Germany
22 May 99 Rock Am Ring Festival - Nurnbergring, Germany
24 May 99 Spodek Festival - Katowice, Poland
Always interested in any/all Garbage recordings, TV, FM, aud, etc.
LOTS for trade at http://www.jps.net/garbage/gdats.html
Also, virtually all Garbage setlists are available at the Garbage Concert
Chronology -->> http://www.jps.net/garbage/
Danke,
--
-Bill
From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com>
Subject: Re: M1 renumber problem
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:37:05 -0400 (EDT)
> My unit has never eaten tapes, but
> it's sometimes taken several renumber attempts to get through them all --
> and sometimes it even misses closely-spaced ID marks. The only common
> factor seems to be IDs that are close together.
The dat spec says that Start-IDs take 9 seconds of tape, and must have
at least 18 seconds from the end of one to the start of the next.
Seth
From: Chris Wallace <chriswallace@earthlink.net>
Subject: extras to trade or b/p
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 13:33:27 -0700
<html>
hey now, <br>
i have extras of moe. 1-23-99 2x60 (fob schoeps cmbi4v->sbm-.p1) and
dead 6-8-77 set 2 sbd>reel>dat 1x60.<br>
<br>
would prefer to do a quik trade but will do b/p.<br>
<br>
chris<br>
<font color="#0000FE"><u>http://home.earthlink.net/~chriswallace/datlist.html<br>
</font></u></html>
From: alex coluzzi <alexc@well.com>
Subject: Couple of requests
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 10:57:54 +0000
Hi fellow DAT-heads,
I'm looking for anyone who made a tape of Tuesday's Phil/Bobby/Sammy
thing in Santa Rosa. I am counting on the fact at least one Schoeps or
Neumanns person was there :)
I'm also looking for a complete copy of Santana 4/18/99 Fillmore, my
tape ran out at 3:07 but Carlos did not until 20 minutes later.
Last but not least I am would like a high quality spin of any
Kravitz/Black Crowes/Everlast show. I know many of you tape Black
Crowes, regardless of what their current taping policy is, and am hoping
you left your deck in record for Lenny and Everlast. High end mics only
please.
I have a ton of recent Schoeps masters to trade, but only for the above
mentioned items.
thanks in advance!
-alex
From: pkmin@rsc.rockwell.com
Subject: Chico, CA heads, May 7th - Cool Water Canyon@ your house!
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:11:41 -0700
I ~highly~ recommend this jam band from Santa Barbara(all forms of taping
encouraged!).
>From the latest newsletter:
Anyone in Chico interested in having a party on May 7th, we would love to play
there. E-mail ASAP.
FRI 7TH HOUSE PARTY (Chico) Location TBA Any fans in Chico that want to have
a party and have Cool Water Canyon play at their house this night for free,
please e-mail ASAP! coolwatercanyon@hotmail.com
For Cool Water Canyon info/tour dates, check out coolwatercanyon.com
May
1st - Isla Vista Beer Company - Isla Vista, CA - (805) 961-4488
4th - 14 Below - Santa Monica, CA - 10pm - (310) 451-5040
5th - Rocky's - Santa Barbara, CA - (805) 966-0028
8th - Inn of the Beginning - Cotati, CA - W/ Government Grown (707) 664-1522
14th - G Street Pub - Davis, CA - 10pm (530) 758-3154
15th - Blake's - Berkeley, CA - 11pm (510) 848-0886
18th - The Hub - UCSB Campus - 4:00pm
20th - Emerging Artist's and Talent in Music Showcase - Las Vegas, NV - 9:55 -
10:20pm
22nd - Legends Lounge- Las Vegas, NV 11pm (702) 437-9674
27th - New George's - San Rafael, CA (415) 547-8424
28th - Last Day Saloon - San Francisco, CA (415) 387-6343
29th - Brookdale Lodge - Brookdale, CA - In the Santa Cruz Mountains (831)
338-7633
June
5th - BrewFest - Saint Mary's College - Moraga, CA - 1-4:00pm
12th - Private Function - San Luis Obispo, CA
19th - TBA - Santa Barbara, CA
(speaking of Chico,...Bigfoot 99..yummy!)....Pete
From: "Teddy GoodBear" <GoodBear@GeoCities.com>
Subject: Re: ~~GoodBear AUD 4/25+26/77 Tree~~
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:00:50 -0400
Just a reminder that the tree closes tonight at midnight, ABSOULUTELY no
exceptions.
To sign-up go to:
http://www.goodbear.com/tree.html
PLEASE remember to ALSO sign-up for the "GoodBearAud1" newsgroup mail list,
or risk not getting important info, such as the final structure. To sign-up
for this list go to:
http://www.egroups.com/group/goodbearaud1
Teddy :^) http://www.goodbear.com Teddy@GoodBear.com
Home of AUD trees: http://www.goodbear.com/tree.html
Batch #1 AUD Tree: GD 4/25+26/77 - 450+ signups & counting (ends 4/30)
NEW: AUD only Tree(s) Coming Soon! GD 5/1+28/77 is Batch #2
NEW: AUD only Tree(s) Coming Soon! GD 5/3+4/77 may be Batch #3
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/goodbear/1965setlists.html
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/goodbear/1966setlists.html
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/goodbear/1967setlists.html
Art Pages: http://www.pompano.net/~goodbear
From: Jean-Luc Bruyelle <jl_bruyelle@compuserve.com>
Subject: 16 bits, 14 bits, whatever
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 16:04:01 -0400
Rob Bertrando wrote :
>> Perhaps the reason to record at lower levels is to spare the mic
preamps?
>> It's relatively easy to demonstrate that a DAT recorder does best
recording
>> peaks to 0 dB, and I'm sure people here have done those experiments, but
>> probably (like me) only with line-level signals.
Despite all the passionate arguments I read in this thread, the only (and
excellent) reason to record at lower levels is that whenever the
instantaneous recording level exceeds 0 dBFS, then the signal gets clipped.
I really don't see any point in saying that, maybe, it won't be audible,
because it most probably will, and you can never tell before it happens.
This is not a risk one wants to take in any serious recording situation, as
you don't necessarily have a second chance - and even if you have one, the
second take is never like the first one (make it : usually not as good).
Also, I don't think there is any particular distortion between -12dBFS and
0dBFS, in any case I've never been able to measure it. The only point here
is to allow occasional modulation peaks (screams, etc...) without risking a
nasty clipping. There are several common nominal levels, according to the
advices you are willing to take. -12dBFS is most common among consumer
users. Professionals use several values between -24dBFS and -18dBFS. This
is nothing to do with a particular type of deck, just with the safety
margin you are willing to use. You can use a nominal level of -24dBFS on a
D8, or -12dBFS on a Nagra D if you like. And, best of all, the difference
in S/N is not so large that it gets noticeable in usual cases (the
background noise is usually much higher).
I'm sure that some insanely compressed FM radios can be recorded with
almost no safety margin at all, but does anyone here consider it is an
example to generalize ? (Besides, these radios also have an awful S/N
anyway, so there is nothing to gain in increasing the nominal level)
On a related note, Seth Breidbart wrote :
>> The assumption is that I'm running the
>> 16-bit machine such that the peak voltage gives -12dB,
The SOP is not -12dBFS peak level, it is -12dBFS _average_ level, so that
the modulation peaks can be higher without exceeding 0dBFS. The pros use
more conservative average values (-18 to -24dBFS), because they have a
tougher life. Experience shows that in many field situations, an average
value of -12dBFS is liveable only with a serious limiter.
Jean-Luc.
From: swsmith@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Samson MX-4
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:09:43 -0500 (CDT)
You wrote:
================================================
From: "Paul Matthews" <corndog41@hotmail.com>
Subject: Samson Mixpad-4 Mixer
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 23:30:05 PDT
Does anyone use the Samson Mixpad-4 Mixer? I'm considering one as an
alternative to a more pricy pre-amp/A/D. <snip>
Paul
==================================================
It's not a bad box, but has some limitations. I use one w/ it's supplied power transformer for
club shows, and feed the line ins of the two main channels from a Lunatech V2, and the Aux in from
a stereo SBD feed w/ time correction for matrix mix tapes, when I can't use my bigger boards due
to space considerations.
Needless to say, the battery life is not great (3 9v.'s, about 1 1/2 hours w/
phantom on), and the signal output isn't the cleanest sounding, especially when using the internal
mic pre-amps. I have built an external DC pack for it, which runs through a 5-pin MIDI cable to
match that on the power supply for the unit, and allows about 8 hours of continuous use w/ phantom
on.
The EQ is just wide enough to really scrag the sound of a tape, especially if you
try to mix at a show w/ phones on, but the lo band is usefull if applied gently to remove the
airconditoner rumbles or excessive sub-bass from the PA. I'd avoid getting too far from the
center positon on the EQ unless you really have to.
All of the controls are rotary potentiometer type, which makes repeat settings and even matching
levels between channels difficult. The single biggest pain in the ass is the lack of any
metering. It has a couple of small LEDs that will flash _at_ clipping (Instead of just before
like pro gear), and another two that indicate lo-battery from the phantom power supply - - - they
light up when you switch them on for 2 seconds, then go out, and only come back on as the power
gets lower! Ass backwards, if you ask me . . . ;)
The 18v phantom will power my AT-4041's or 4051's, or a pair of Nak 300's for less total time
but _won't_ work on my Microtech Gefells or the Schoeps Mk-IVs. Check the specs on the specific
mics to see if they'll run undervoltage, and also look at the distortion specifications. The MGs
actually will work, but they sound more like a pair of Fisher Price toys through the MX-4 than
good condenser mics. The Schoeps just sit there & whine for more power. . . ;) YMMV
Now, if I had a 2) vocals & 2) guitars stage act that needed a quick & dirty mix to a pair of
powered PA-on-a-stick speakers at the local Holiday Inn Lounge. . . or was trying to overdub some
keyboard parts in the hotel room at 3.00 am, then this would be the perfect choice. It will work
for a live rig, but it's really designed for the musician market, so isn't as nifty for tapers as
it looks. Mine is really useful for some things, but for the stuff that really has to sound
right, I use something else.
You might look at one of the smaller Behringer or Mackie boards instead if you really want
audiophile grade gear, and are doing more than just live show taping. New Mackie 1202's are about
$300 , and the 1402's (w/ real faders, 6 mic inputs, & other nifty features) are less than $400.
Shure and a British company called 'Rolls' also make electronic news gathering/location sound for
film portable mixers, but the cost is _much_ higher. The modifications needed to remote power
these are somewhat pricey, but not really difficult.
If you're looking at it as a learning tool, and don't expect too much in the way of ripping
crispy sound, then it's a good buy. But I'd recommend you save a bit more and get a good mic
pre/power supply like the Beyerdynamic MV-100 or the Sonosax instead, especially if all you're
planning to do is tape shows. A lot less hassle, smaller & easier to carry, and in the long run
it eats fewer 9 volt batteries.
Stan
<0 \\ swsmith@ix.netcom.com Stan Smith, Dallas, TX 'boo-cat'
=) "Flips suck! . . ." - analog tapers' koan #4
<0 // "Flips _really_ suck! . . ." - digital tapers' koan #2
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