DAT-Heads Digest #949
Contents:
DA-P1 & SBM-1 question (Mike Vernal)
GD MP3 OK (Conall O'Brien)
DDS vs DAT tapes ("Rob Bertrando")
DAT>MAC>CD-R (Jordan Mayhew)
FS/ 2 Pavillion tix for DMB 6/27 (Sun) @ Alpine ("Scott/ Deb McPherrin")
FT: PHISHTIX 7/10 & 7/15 (Joe Galbraith)
glitchy PC audio - a help reference (Jesse Lackey)
Re: Panasonic's 'statements' (Seth Breidbart)
Re: MD vs DAT?? (Seth Breidbart)
Re:taping on reverse side of tape? (pkmin@rsc.rockwell.com)
RE: Panasonics reply about DDS tapes (Gordon Gidluck)
Aerosmith 5-7-99 (Dominic Amalfatano)
WTB: Used SBM-1 (Delano)
Re: taping on reverse side of tape? (Seth Breidbart)
Re: Panasonic's reply to Omar (long) (Alexander W. Chin)
Re:taping on reverse side of tape? (pkmin@rsc.rockwell.com)
New Trades ("Catterall, Stephen (London)")
THEO FORBATH ("Joe Ray Skrha")
Re: CD-R programs & track marks ("David D. Rogers")
From: Mike Vernal <vernal@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: DA-P1 & SBM-1 question
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:06:53 -0400 (EDT)
Is it possible to bypass the A/D converter on the DA-P1, yet still use the
mic pre-amp? Specifically, I plan on getting a Lunatec later in the
summer, but right now, if I were to get or borrow an SBM-1, is there
anyway to run my earthworks sr-77s into my DA-P1's pre-amp, then send the
line out to the sbm-1, then use an oade cable to send the digi out on the
sbm-1 back to my DA-P1 to record?
Or there any problems associated with this?
just wondering--thanks
-mike
#
# Mike Vernal
# vernal@fas.harvard.edu
#
# http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~vernal/
#
From: sv3700head@webtv.net (Conall O'Brien)
Subject: GD MP3 OK
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:40:30 -0700 (PDT)
6 o'clock news reported tonight that the Grateful Dead has given
official approval to download MP3's of concert "tapes". to anyone. Free
and non-profit use. Glad they addressed that issue.
What sites are currently available?
Conall
From: "Rob Bertrando" <rbbert@earthlink.net>
Subject: DDS vs DAT tapes
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:53:53 -0700
Sony's resident DAT guru (Terrapin Tapes' Werner has his name and phone #)
will assure anyone who cares (off the record, I imagine, though I didn't
ask) that DDS tapes are fine to use in Sony recorders, at least. Although
he doesn't advise using 90M tapes, he acknowledges that with the R500 and M1
(and the newer transport R300) there should be no problems.
From: Jordan Mayhew <jmayhew@cloud9.net>
Subject: DAT>MAC>CD-R
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 22:48:39 -0500
I been looking into putting my shows onto cd's and need some suggestions
on how to go about doing this. Any suggestions by way of the programs
to use and the adaptors(RMD100K?) and the best cd-r for the money.
Jordan
From: "Scott/ Deb McPherrin" <hippies@frontiernet.net>
Subject: FS/ 2 Pavillion tix for DMB 6/27 (Sun) @ Alpine
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 22:21:32 -0500
hey y'all,
subject says it...rather these go to a taper...
face...
thanks...
peace
scott
From: Joe Galbraith <slipknot@bellatlantic.net>
Subject: FT: PHISHTIX 7/10 & 7/15
Reply-To: slipknot@bellatlantic.net
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:14:56 -0400
Once again, the MO was a failure. Requested taper only - got lawn.
Will offer up 2 lawn for both 7/10 & 7/15 shows (4 total) for 2 taper
seats for either of those two nights. I know it's a long shot, but what
the hell. Will provide patch, clone, CDR of the show as well.
Thanks
From: Jesse Lackey <jesse@celestialaudio.com>
Subject: glitchy PC audio - a help reference
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:20:17 -0400
see http://www.celestialaudio.com for some Win95 + general tips N tricks for
glichless PC audio recording.
Jesse
--
Jesse Lackey, Ithaca, NY my personal page: http://www.lightlink.com/jesse
From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Panasonic's 'statements'
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:21:30 -0400 (EDT)
> What I meant was that sucessfully backing up computer data is a lot more
> Important than archiving a music file. If a data backup tape fails
> important computer data can be lost permanently. Never mind that the ones
> and zeros are stored the same way.
They aren't. There's more redundancy on data. (That's why most data
drives can't read audio tapes; they expect that redundancy.)
> Again, I can't see how one drive could possibly run any coller than any
> other (type) of drive. It seems to me that heat would be produced the same
> way in either case.
If one type is spec'd for a lower temperature, then it would have a
fan built in.
> I don't buy the rationale that a data drive is linear
> and doesn't jog back and forth. I have heard them clicking and 'jogging'
> back and forth.
Data is less linear than audio. Sometimes, a whole lot less.
Streaming data is comparable to audio.
> > On at least two Sony DAT decks the transports have been
> >specifically designed to detect and eject DDS tapes,
Has anybody here run into that? (I suspect that people on this list
own at least one of just about any model of deck made.)
Seth
From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com>
Subject: Re: MD vs DAT??
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:22:39 -0400 (EDT)
>> i got his email and a copy of his recording and did a blind test
>> with my show put to cassette and his to cassette,
>
> Well, that convinces me! I'm dumping all my digital equipment and
> buying a cassette!
I suspect that one was louder than the other, which would easily
explain the difference.
Seth
From: pkmin@rsc.rockwell.com
Subject: Re:taping on reverse side of tape?
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 20:34:13 -0700
> i took the tape apart, and discovered some crinkle at the start of the
> tape which, with the folding, apparently had caused the tape to load
> backwards i.e. the heads were attempting to record on the backing. at
> least that was the way the tape was loaded into the shell.
>
> long story short, there was no recording to recover!
"I don't think your conclusion is certain. There is a more than
reasonable chance that a playable recording *can* be made on the
reverse side of the tape."
I'm hardly a dat tape expert but do know (from
http://www.hp.com/tape/media/ddsmedspec.html) that the overall tape thickness of
a 2 hour/60 meter (or less) dat/dds tape is about 13 microns(a 3 hour tape about
9 microns). The magnetic coating is about 3 microns. A *very*simplified* cross
section (since I'm leaving out a bunch of other layers - top, bottom, and
intermediate)would be something like:
___________________________________________________
(more or less)upper 3 microns magnetic coating(HP DDS use passivated iron
particles)
__________________________________________________
(more or less)bottom 10 microns some type of polymer backing film perhaps
???PET???
___________________________________________________
Given the poor electrical conductivity of most polymers, I find it very unlikely
for any signal from the heads to pass through the polymer backing film and into
the magnetic coating(and even if a teeny amount of signal made it through (which
I doubt)it would be so weak that the heads probably wouldn't be able to pick it
up/follow it on playback)......Pete
From: Gordon Gidluck <ggidluck@artelco.com>
Subject: RE: Panasonics reply about DDS tapes
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:12:13 -0700
Panasonic support writes:
>Panasonic, along with a few of our key service centers, have studied this
>topic very extensively. We have also contacted several of the leading tape
>manufacturers to determine the differences between the DAT tapes and DDS
>tapes intended for computer backups. Let me start of by saying that the
>tapes use two distinctly different tape formulations that are not
>interchangeable. Much of what we would call "mis-information" appears to be
>coming from a group on the Internet calling themselves "DATHEADS".
Let's just say that if the tape formulations *are* distinctly different,
then we should not use the DDS type tapes. Maxell has stated on
dat-heads that their formulation is identical on their DDS and audio DAT
tapes.
I respect Panasonics opinion, but I suspect that the statement which
says that DDS tapes and audio DAT tapes are different formulations does
not consider all the facts. Apparently there are exceptions to that
rule, Maxell being one of them. I contend that 60 meter or less Maxell
DDS tapes are safe to use, they are identical in formulation, thickness
and binder. If you have any facts contrary to this, could you please
provide them.
Gordon Gidluck
From: stagestruck1@webtv.net (Dominic Amalfatano)
Subject: Aerosmith 5-7-99
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:19:12 -0700 (PDT)
Anyone in this dat box stealth this show got tons to trade
From: Delano <bluesky@mindspring.com>
Subject: WTB: Used SBM-1
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 00:28:31 -0400
Hi
Anyone interested in selling a Sony SBM-1 please contact me. THanks
Take Care,
Delano
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Center/3834/index.htm
DAT List:
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Center/3834/Tapelist.htm
From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com>
Subject: Re: taping on reverse side of tape?
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 00:36:15 -0400 (EDT)
> I'm hardly a dat tape expert but do know (from
> http://www.hp.com/tape/media/ddsmedspec.html) that the overall tape thickness of
> a 2 hour/60 meter (or less) dat/dds tape is about 13 microns(a 3 hour tape about
> 9 microns). The magnetic coating is about 3 microns.
Correct.
> Given the poor electrical conductivity of most polymers, I find it very unlikely
> for any signal from the heads to pass through the polymer backing film and into
> the magnetic coating
The signal from the heads is magnetic rather than electrical.
Magnetic signals pass just fine through plastics. The extra distance
from the heads will cause problems, and the tape is high coercivity,
but there might well be a readable signal. (It would be easier to
read (i.e. stronger) from the front side of the tape, but it would be
backwards so the electronics wouldn't recognize it; you'd have to spin
the heads backwards. But even from the back, it might be strong
enough. That would explain the "plays after recording but never
appears non-blank again" tapes.)
Seth
From: alex@gerulf.acsu.unsw.edu.au (Alexander W. Chin)
Subject: Re: Panasonic's reply to Omar (long)
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 15:03:48 +1000
Hey all,
Der mood... it's back. Grr... So, the attitude - it's back.
>From: Bill Shaw <bshaw@skyway.com>
>Subject: Panasonic's reply to Omar (long)
>Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:03:05 -0700
>
<snip>
>Actually the *opposite* is true!! What is this guy on? DDS drives are contantly
>jogging back and forth as data is written and/or read to and from the tape. In
>an audio DAT drive, the tape plays continuously from start to finish *without*
>"jogging back and forth" - (unless you are rewinding or forwarding to find a
>specific spot on the tape, something DDS drives do by design). This guy at
>Panasonic is spreading more "mis-information" than most any dat-heads post!
Not necessarily. Pfffftt...
For me on audio DAT, I do a lot of seeks and repeats. When I do my backups,
most times, the tape just streams through.
You'll find seeks on the computer DATs with you're trying to restore
multiple files. And from the mechanism of my DDS drive (Wang 3100, and Sony
SDT-7000) they look like they're designed to handle the tapes better.
Compared to my D7,D3 and DT-9000.
I'd say the computer drives have better tension control and are more
accurate in positioning the tape. The audio ones, they have crap
tensioning, and my tapes get caught in the more often. Never in my life
have I seen a computer drive mishandle a tape.
I'm guessing that tapes live longer in the computer drives. In fact, when
my audio ones die, I drop them into the computer drives which are more
tolerant. You'd think that you'll want 100% accuracy in the computer drive,
but I drop my faulty ones there, and they work fine. Heh...
>Earlier he states that the DDS tape *will* damage your heads such that
>they will
>almost certainly need replacing, although he was actually talking about
>shedding. As far as I know, shedding simply makes the heads dirty, but doesn't
>physically damage the heads. Why he says the heads will need replacing, I don't
>know.
Pffttt...
If heads clog easily, it is a sign that they have worn more than bout 35
microns. And if they have worn bout that much, hrm... a change is bound to
happen soon.
Normal new heads, they are hard to clog. You can shed all you want, but it
won't clog the heads. The oxide just slides off. This is partly due to the
fact that the heads protrude out more and thus has a greater head/tape
pressure. The new heads also have a different shape (they are cut in a
certain shape to streamline tape passage) and have smaller surface area
than a worn one. As they wear, their shape changes, and also the
pressure/unit area. And their surface also changes, making it easier for
clogs to happen.
Take it from an expert. Don't believe me? Go ask somebody else who knows.
For what it's worth, I used Ampex DDS tapes on my D7. I could tell they
were more abrasive than the Sony DDS ones. My face don't look as handsome
when I peered into the tape surface. The Sony tapes reflect like a mirror,
the ampex ones, they look like my kitchen sponge.
Of course, I've been told I look like a criminal before, so that's probably
not a valid argument.
And when they travel through the transport, they cause more friction and
draw more power from the D7. I know by the noises it makes, and the dimness
of the backlight. Believe me.
This added friction I believe is to provide self-cleaning of the heads, and
also extra wear. Go figure.
Cheers
Alex
=========================================================================
It is better to have loved and laid, then to have never laid at all
Alexander W. Chin (alex@gerulf.acsu.unsw.edu.au)
From: pkmin@rsc.rockwell.com
Subject: Re:taping on reverse side of tape?
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 22:45:07 -0700
"Given the poor electrical conductivity of most polymers, I find it very
unlikely for any signal from the heads to pass through the polymer backing film
and into the magnetic coating(and even if a teeny amount of signal made it
through (which I doubt)it would be so weak that the heads probably wouldn't be
able to pick it up/follow it on playback)......Pete"
During recording, the added thickness of the polymer backing would create too
much distance bw the heads and the magnetic coating for the flux leaving the
record head to precisely lay down a strong enough track, and upon playback the
heads wouldn't be able to see it well enough to follow it (there wouldn't be a
track, the heads need to be much closer to the magnetic coating in the first
place to be able to lay a good track)....Pete (sorry for throwing the electrical
conductivity thing at you, that's not what's impt here, what's impt is the added
distance that the polymer backing creates bw the heads and the magnetic coating)
From: "Catterall, Stephen (London)" <catteste@MLE.CO.UK>
Subject: New Trades
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 09:08:38 +0100
Recorded these over the past few months
Garbage 30/01/99 Wembley Arena, London (DPA4061->D100) 97m 9.00
Daud
Williams, Lucinda 22/11/98 Shepherd's Bush Empire
(DPA4061->D100) 105m 9.50 Daud
Griffith, Nanci 29/11/98 Barbican, London (DPA4061->D100) 130m
9.25 Daud
Gene 26/03/99 Forum, London(DPA4061->D100) 74m 9.50 DAud
M
Fountains Of Wayne 19/04/99 Dingwalls, London(DPA4061->D100)
74m 9.25 DAud M
Willis, Kelly 13/5/99 Imrov Theatre, London(DPA4061->D100)
Also have recent FM masters of Radiohead,Blur,Kula Shaker,Suede,PJ
Harvey,Orbital, Mercury Rev, Faithless and the Linda McCartney Benefit.
Looking to trade for similar sorts of things. If anyone's interested please
get in touch
My full list is at http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Mezzanine/3692/
Thanks Steve x
From: "Joe Ray Skrha" <joeray@ptialaska.net>
Subject: THEO FORBATH
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 01:15:04 -0800
To THEO FORBATH...
For some reason I cannot get my message to you. I'm sorry to use the
list to get you a message but everything I send you bounces. I love your
Cleveland list. Hold recording the second 50 DATS where you are and I will
get you my Cleveland requests shortly. I am working on your next 50 and I'm
a little through the CSNY master material. You will love this stuff and the
quality great. I have the entire June 3, 1970 CSNY show from the Fillmore
(Soundboard) that will knock you over.. Same with several complete CSNY
1974 shows. I have to make room for this summer. Pray for peace, Joe Ray
at: joeray@ptialaska.net
ps: send me your phone number again privately.
From: "David D. Rogers" <drogers@pobox.com>
Subject: Re: CD-R programs & track marks
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 02:29:42 -0700
>From: "James Simpson" <jsim@flash.net>
>Subject: CD-R programs & track marks
>Reply-To: "James Simpson" <jsim@flash.net>
>Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 21:03:22 -0500
>
>Sorry for the lack of dat content. Can anyone recommend a good program for
>burning CDR's, specifically one that makes it easy to do track marks. I've
>been using Easy CD Creator Lite that came with my Plextor 8/20, but with it
>you have to copy tracks (I copy and paste from Soundforge XP), which is time
>consuming. There's gotta be a good, cheap program that allows you to specify
>where you want to put track marks in time. Also, are there any CD-R's that
>will reliably give more than 74 minutes? (I have one show that's just barely
>over 74 min., and the Maxell CDR's I'm using hold no more than 74 min.).
>Thanks,
>James
For the CD-R burning, Goldenhawk's CDRWIN (http://www.goldenhawk.com) works
fine for everything you've described, and it supports most CD recorders out
there.
There are 80-minute CD-Rs available from most of the vendors that advertise
to this list, but it seems all of them are made by companies with not-great
reputations. Plus, because the tracks on those discs are thinner than
74-minute discs, they might have problems with some CD recorders. Also,
some CD recorders (such as a Ricoh-made one I used to use) won't record a
disc over 74 minutes, even if the disc itself is capable of it. You might
try test-recording a disc over 74 minutes just to see if it's possible on
your drive; if it flat-out refuses, your drive won't do it. (Record using
your software's test mode; that way you won't waste a disc if it doesn't
work. It's also a good way to see which discs are longer.) As for which
discs will reliably record over 74 minutes, almost all of them will record
at least a few seconds over. I've read on Usenet that Ricoh Platinums can
hold a little over 78 minutes, but I haven't tried or verified it. If they
can, I'd choose those over any of the no-name brands any day.
Peace,
<> David
<> David
http://www.lightlink.com/drogers/
=============
"People, who eat people, are the loneliest people in the world!"
–Barbara Streisand, slightly skewed
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