DAT-Heads Digest #557
Contents:
6/30/97 Further Tree @ www.tapetree.com (nlayman@sprynet.com)
Tascam DAP-1 or Teac DAP-20 FS (levitt)
Widespread Panic @ Redrocks 6/26 & 6/27 (jsadow@ix.netcom.com)
Re: D3 digital in *AND* out? [Also D100 pricing] (Dan Shoop)
Never mention ("Charles M. Quinn")
Furthur Board Patches ??? (Marcus Thunich)
Re: New KAO Gold DATs ("David D. Rogers")
Re: DAT-Heads Digest #554 (Brian Fitzsimmons)
Re: Head cleaning (was DA20 & R500) (Matthew Nordhaus)
L.A./Ventura/Santa Barbara dat-heads (Peter Min)
new DVD-audio compatible DAT decks and 16-bit S/N ("Gary Davis")
Re: Fostex D10/D15/D25/D30 error indicator ("Gary Davis")
SVMD1 For Sale (Stan Lobitz)
Dan Bern wanted (Paul Pollock)
Re: DA20 (Steven Aric Weinberg)
NEW JIMI HENDRIX SITE! (Alex Sloley)
From: nlayman@sprynet.com
Subject: 6/30/97 Further Tree @ www.tapetree.com
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 16:11:17 -0700
I wasn't happy with the sound in Camdan on 6/28, there will be no Camdan tree.
I am treeing parts of the duad I did at Montage 6/30. If you would like a review
and setlist please contact the Tree page at http://www.tapetree.com
Please note that the Gathering Of The Vibe tree's will be closing tommorrow.
If your a Old & In The Way or NRPS fan. The Vassar Clements (what a sweetheart)
& Buddy Cage duad tree from 6/27 is open.
Peace.......................Nick
www.tapetree.com
"Live DATS - Spun Fresh"
nlayman@sprynet.com
From: levitt@patriot.net (levitt)
Subject: Tascam DAP-1 or Teac DAP-20 FS
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 19:34:43 -0400
I friend of mine wants to sell a Tascam DAP-1 that is approximately 5
months old and used only slightly for studio work. Any offers? Also, I
have a Teac DAP-20 that is several years old but works beautifully. If I
had a decent offer on the Teac, I'd consider upgrading and buying the DAP-1
for myself.
Let me know if anyone's interested.
From: jsadow@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Widespread Panic @ Redrocks 6/26 & 6/27
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 19:02:55 -0500 (CDT)
Sorry for the grovel content - but these shows were some of the most profound musical experiences I have had in my thirty
years.....period. Could some kind soul please get in touch with me for a quick DAT trade. I have over 3000 hours of mostly
Dead SBDs <several other bands>, and 4 pro decks, so a quick turnaround is no problem <and preferred>. Sorry for the grovel &
lack of DAT info - I am just desperate to hear this music again..
Peace,
Jake
From: Dan Shoop <shoop@digex.net>
Subject: Re: D3 digital in *AND* out? [Also D100 pricing]
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 20:03:09 -0400
M. Smith - LaserNut wrote:
>
>>>What's this I hear about Sony decks not having standard voltage for
>>>the coaxial i/o,
>>
>>The portables (D3, D7, D8, probably D100) that use a 7-pin connector,
>>have a 5v signal at the connector. The Sony cables translate that to
>>the standard S/PDIF levels.
>
>
>Now wait a second, so does the D3 have digital ins *AND* outs then? I was
>told that it deos not. Thanks in advance.
The D3,7,8 & 100 use a 7 pin connector which does not supply standard
S/PDIF signals. Sony makes parts that convert the 7 pin output to coax out
*or* in and or optical in *or* out. While you have both ins and outs with
the Sony stock parts, you can't have both at the same time. This is a
problem for digital taping chains.
ProDigital sells a modified RKDA10 (the Sony coax part) that allows both
ins and outs at the same time. The part sells for $105
Paul also told me that he expected the selling price of the TCD-D100 to be
$750.
-dhan
=============================================================================
Dan Shoop 127 East Prospect Street
Internet Architect Waldwick, NJ 07463
shoop@digex.net (201) 445-8644
finger shoop@access.digex.net for new-and-improved pgp v5.0 public key.
From: "Charles M. Quinn" <cmquinn@primenet.com>
Subject: Never mention
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 18:20:00 -0700 (MST)
At a party (or a mailing list) never mention politics, sex, one's tape
preference, or talk about stereos and their specs.
Charles
===================================
>From: KAOmold@aol.com
>Subject: old KAO, new KAO
>A Friendly Reminder-
>
>The makers of "KAO Gold" are the same company that took
>defective product from Terrapin, reduced the price and sold to
>Cassette House.
===================================
>From: DooDah Man <ken@webjams.com>
>Subject: Just a friendly converation :)
>Reply-To: ken@webjams.com
>> First, the important question is whether you can _hear_ the
>> difference. Lots of people can't; is it worth $5700 to them that it
>> will sound better to you if you ever visit?
>
>I would think that is someone can't hear the difference between a $300
>amp and a $2500 amp, or a $100 speaker and a $1000 speaker, then they
>need a set of Beltones.
From: am642@freenet.carleton.ca (Marcus Thunich)
Subject: Furthur Board Patches ???
Reply-To: am642@freenet.carleton.ca
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:32:23 -0400 (EDT)
HI,
Just wondering what the lowdown is on board patches
at Furthur this year.?? Has anybody had luck/been denied??
Garcias,
Marcus
--
####
From: "David D. Rogers" <drogers@lightlink.com>
Subject: Re: New KAO Gold DATs
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 18:52:55 -0700
>From: Jeff <drjibe@netwiz.net>
>Subject: Re: New KAO Gold DATs
>Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 00:25:41 -0700
[snip]
>I am hopeful the gold will be an improvement over the poor quality control
>rate I've experienced on a KAO 90 batch which I bought and tried because
>of similar hype and resulted in a lot of wasted time and frustration for
>me. I hope they are doing more with the gold than changing the wrapper
>color to all gold because most dat tape looks the same to me.
I'd like to hear what Kao has done to make the tape better, for two. I know
there's a Kao rep on the list here somewhere. They've made a better
(longer) label, but that's not difficult to do. :)
Also, is this a DAT or a certified DDS tape? Do they expect to sell more to
DAT users than for DDS backup? Is it supposed to be more problem-free for
DDS backup than their "standard" DDS tape? And how much will it cost?
(I'm hoping they're going to OEM their gold-standard tape for other
companies. It will inevitably be cheaper. :)
I've had some playback problems with a 90m unlabeled Kao in a D7, but no
recording problems. (When it was played back, it seemed to have some head
contact problems. Problems I heard once when I played back, I didn't hear
again when I rewound the tape and played it again. It was only somewhat
assuring, since I had to try a few times before I got a flawless copy on a
60m tape.) I only had a problem with a 60m Kao (also Digital unlabeled)
when I seemingly abused it (too much fast-forwarding and rewinding at one
particular point; the tape itself became physically bent vertically, and it
seems difficult to blame this on the manufacturer).
======
Note to Sean Kennedy: I sent an unsubscribe message and got an automated
confirmation from your address. I then got a digest a few hours later. I'm
going on vacation next week for a month, and I don't want to come home to a
bunch 'o digests. (I don't mind using the WWW version in the meantime.)
Please unsubscribe me.
======
Peace,
<> David
URL me at http://www.lightlink.com/drogers/
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"You can kill a thousand; you can bring an end to life; you cannot kill
an idea."
--Former Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres on the assassination of
Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin (1922-1995)
=================
"There's more to being a minister than not caring about people."
--Rev. Lovejoy
From: Brian Fitzsimmons <bpfitzsi@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
Subject: Re: DAT-Heads Digest #554
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:32:53 -0400 (EDT)
> From: KAOmold@aol.com
> Subject: old KAO, new KAO
> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:17:05 -0400 (EDT)
>
> A Friendly Reminder-
>
> The makers of "KAO Gold" are the same company that took
> defective product from Terrapin, reduced the price and sold to
> Cassette House. Terrapin maintained for months that there was
> nothing wrong with KAO tape. Even though employees at
> Terrapin told me they were getting tons of returns and the price on
> the KAO's was magically reduced in price by about 20%.
> I and many others have personnally witnessed several bad
> 60m and 90m KAOs and will never touch that
> garb again.
>
> Both KAO and Terrapin *never* stepped up and took responsibility
> and stopped selling defective tape into the DAT community. Now they
> think they can slide through by saying they fixed the *minor* problem
> and add a new unimaginative name.
Will this completely needless argument ever end on this list? Whew...man
am I gettin' tired of it! That same article on KAO Gold DATs mentioning
how flame wars and disagreements on this list can erupt to truly religious
proprtions was quite accurate. At first it was nice to receive
information about these tapes. It's that kind of stuff which makes this
list so useful to us DAT-heads. Then after a while it got to be like
beating a dead horse. Now, it's like we're beating the living sh@t out
of it. Can't we all just put this argument to rest?
Brian
From: Matthew.Nordhaus@VALLEY.NET (Matthew Nordhaus)
Subject: Re: Head cleaning (was DA20 & R500)
Date: 01 Jul 97 22:41:40 EDT
OADE@delphi.com wrote:
>I believe we have serviced and sold as many of these as anyone. The
>most common problem we see is CHEAP tape shedding. This accounts for
>about 90 % of the machines we have coming into the shop. We have been
>able to clear EVERY clogged head , so far. After getting the user to
>switch to a good Audio grade tape they stop having trouble. While this
As far as a good head cleaning, what do you do? The standard swab and head
cleaning by hand after opening up the machine, or is there some secret
technique you would like to keep to yourself? :-)
...and do the cheap tapes end up damaging the heads? It sounds like a regular,
careful cleaning regime and cheap tapes aren't any worse than expensive tapes
and irregular cleaning
Matthew Nordhaus
still no sig
From: pkmin@scimail.risc.rockwell.com (Peter Min)
Subject: L.A./Ventura/Santa Barbara dat-heads
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 20:10:16 -0700
I'm looking for someone to make the drive up to the High Sierra music
festival with (this 4th of July weekend). I'm in Thousand Oaks. Leaving
Thurs Night, Return Sunday night. I can drive but will not go into L.A. to
pick you up (I'll pick you up in Ventura or S.B. though). Patch and
kindness gladly provided. If interested email or call (805)379-9785 and
leave message. I doubt I'll go unless I can find someone to go with so
please get in touch....my friends just flaked. I believe tickets are about
$120 though which includes camping. Sorry for lack of dat content.
Pete
From: "Gary Davis" <gdavis@loop.com>
Subject: new DVD-audio compatible DAT decks and 16-bit S/N
Reply-to: gdavis@loop.com
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:12:42 +0000
>>Both Fostex and Tascam have decided to wait on introducing a new
>>DAT deck until the DVD-audio standard(s) are finalized, so the
>>current models will be around somewhat longer... --Gary
>
>That's great... how long are they/we willing to wait? :P
Unless you plan on mastering DVD audio discs or record classical
music, I wouldn't wait at all. I'm perfectly happy with 16 bits at
44.1K.
I can see the advantage of having 20 bits on a multi-track like the
new ADAT Merridian, because: 1. the level on a bunch of board tracks
is very unpredictable and 2. you're summing the noise of all the
tracks when you mix it.
Come to think of it, a portable concert DAT recorder with an extra
10dB on the bottom and top wouldn't hurt... of course, there would
still be those people, faced with only 100dB of dynamic range and a
recording that wouldn't go louder than -4, would keep turning it up,
trying to get those last 4dB, completely unaware that the limiter
switch was on...
Recording tip: I have a general rule about changing levels during
live recording: I NEVER TURN IT UP! As long as it's not too loud, I
leave it alone. 1. It's much easier to change the level later if the
whole tape is at the same level! 2. You never know when it will get
louder... maybe MUCH louder... why go "fuck, it's over now" and have
to turn it back down?
Even with "only" 16 bits, the noise floor on DAT is at least 45dB
lower than most of what we are recording (for people with top quality
mikes and pre-amps, I would estimate at least 25-30dB of range is
still available; ie, in a very quiet hall with a very loud band, you
would still have no more than 60-65dB of dynamics to record.
Let me give you an example of noise on a soundboard tape. I will
argue that any noise that gets into the soundboard and goes out over
the PA will be picked up by audience mikes, so an
audience tape could not possibly be quieter than this:
In this tape, Nels Cline Trio was taped completely from "insert"
jacks on the soundboard; ie, the entire mix structure of the
soundboard was bypassed, and only the mike pre-amps were used.
There was still noticeable hiss and buzzing, and it registered just
below -50dB. (Keep in mind that the Nels Cline Trio play with an
enourmous dynamic range).
A minute later, Nels turns on his guitar amp, and there's a loud
buzzing which increases the noise floor to -34dB.
Then, Bob Mair turns on his bass amp, and a completely different
loud buzzing increases the noise to the mid-20's (I can't remember
the exact number).
Now it happens that they started the performance with a very loud
section, so to explain this as a worst-case scenario, we can assume
they had turned they amps all the way up. Still... mid 20's s/n on a
soundboard... and a little audience chit-chat and dat's 90dB S/N
(87dB for the Sony D8) looks pretty good to me, even if I waste some
of it by recording too low.
(Regardless of the starting level, Nels always manages to get up to
zero :) For band that don't, I turn up the level in an
analog re-recording session. If your margin indicator works in
playback (damn you Fostex!), you can even pre-play the whole tape and
know exactly how much you can turn it up.
--Gary
From: "Gary Davis" <gdavis@loop.com>
Subject: Re: Fostex D10/D15/D25/D30 error indicator
Reply-to: gdavis@loop.com
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:18:44 +0000
> Finally, I couldn't help putting in my two cents worth on error correction
> readout. I have been using Fostex D-25's and D-30's in the editing
> environment for several years now and have found one of my favorite
> features to be the error count indicator. The indication shows a percentage
> amount as opposed to raw bit blocks, and there is also a red LED that
> indicates when the error is great enough to mandate correction circuitry. I
> have found in use that momentary errors as great as ten to fifteen percent
> will pass by with no indication of correction application or sonic
> degradation (this does make sense, if we are dealing with one to four or so
>
Actually, quite a bit of correction and concealment goes on before
the red light comes on, the red light actually indicates the failure
to save the sound. In my recollection, it just seems to flash
anytime the indicator goes above 50%.
The 3-digit percentage error indicator was very nice, except, as I
remember it, it combined the number for both heads (not giving
separate A&B head counts), which was less useful when diagnosing
clogged heads.
Speaking of the 50% cuttoff point and clogged heads, I've noticed on
my D5 (which does have separate A&B head error counts), that if the
"A" head is totally clogged, the tape will still play pretty much ok,
as long as the "B" error is 0. But if there's even a slight error on
"B", that's it, not enough usable data, and the sound is a mess.
--G
From: Stan Lobitz <redrain@usnetway.com>
Subject: SVMD1 For Sale
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 00:36:31 -0400
For sale:
Technics SVMD1, the Technics version of the Panasonic SV250. This unit
was
purchased new by me from the DAT Store (gray market) and has been used
for
mastering shows only. It has been well maintained and only has about 25
hours
on new heads etc.. by Doug Oade.
Features:
pre scms, superb quality analog > digital convertor, RCA line in/outs,
1/4 in phono mic
inputs SPIDF out (NO digi in), 2 hrs time on internal rechargeable
battery, smaller than a DAP1, hard leather protective case, standard
Panasonic 4 digit error readout, nice
headphone amp (with full-size headphone jack), AC adapter, original
packaging and
manual, it handles 90meter tapes fine, though I use them only when there
is no time to
change a two hour tape.
Extras:
will include optional 12 volt Technics car adapter (was a $200 option),
internal "dummy" battery power adapter with two 7 amp/hr Powersonics
lead acid cells (good for 4 hours each) and a Powersonics 1000mA smart
charger with automatic
trickle (Functionally the same as the $300 Ecocharge system) allows use
of battery
meter in the deck, as it doesn't provide phantom power I'll toss in a
pair of AKG B18
phantom power supplies.
The price is $900 firm. It is an excellent mastering deck, it has been
very reliable. I used it to tape Furthur yesterday and it made 0000 -
0010 error rate tapes. Reason
for sale, need to raise cash for a recent Apogee purchase. Please see
the market
posting for further details on this deck.
No tire kickers, serious inquiries only!
Later,
Stan
redrain@usnetway.com
redrain@teamschoeps.org
From: Paul Pollock <paul@web-cars.com>
Subject: Dan Bern wanted
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:13:15 -0700
Anyone:
I've been told that there was a recent Dan Bern live broadcast this
weekend. Does anybody know of it or have a copy? I can trade a Dan Bern
5/22/97 show, amongst others, or any number of Springsteen shows.
No Surrender,
Paul
From: Steven Aric Weinberg <wsteve@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: DA20
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 23:20:30 -0700 (PDT)
> From: OADE@delphi.com
> Hello !! This post is in response to the many questions I have received
> on the Tascam DA20 and the Sony PCMR500.
> First the DA20, we have never had to replace the head in one to date.
> I believe we have serviced and sold as many of these as anyone. The
> most common problem we see is CHEAP tape shedding. This accounts for
> about 90 % of the machines we have coming into the shop. We have been
> able to clear EVERY clogged head , so far. After getting the user to
> switch to a good Audio grade tape they stop having trouble. While this
> may not be very scientific, it holds up to common sense. Customer uses
Speaking from personal experience, I have had the misfortune of owning a
Tascam DA20 and within 4 months of ownership (which coincided with being 1
month outside the labor/heads warranty period) I sent my DA20 back to the
Tascam factory service in Montebello. After about 3 months sitting in
their queue, they checked it out and told me I needed a new head. The
problem I had did not appear to be related to dirty heads as a tape would
play perfectly fine for about 20 minutes then invariably the errors would
reach a level so high that every recording would mute. After powering the
machine down and waiting the DA20 would again give me another 20 minutes
of perfect operation before muting.
The saga continues. After spending a considerable amount, I got the DA20
back with the new head. Another 3 months later I started experiencing a
weird problem where the machine would have high errors for about 2 hours
then settle down and run perfect with an error count of 0000. I again
sent it back to Tascam in Montebello, this time they told me the heads
needed cleaning and they cleaned the heads without charge. As soon as I
opened the box the trouble I was experiencing started up, the situation
had not changed. I sent the machine back again a few days later, and they
said no trouble found, so I am stuck with a machine that will not record
or playback without errors. Therefore I believe there are problems with
some DA20 units that go well beyond the Pioneer heads and the type of tape
used. The DA20 is not my only DAT and I have had no problems with any of
the other decks (which I use much more than the DA20 - basically an
overpriced paperweight at this point), so I have serious doubts that
switching to audio grade tapes could have rectified my problem unless the
problem was due to some variant of electronics or mechanics particular to
the DA20 and not used with other DATs that use the Pioneer transport
system.
> cheap tape or 90m dds tape and has massive dropouts and glitches on >
playback and record. Customer stops using cheap tape and the problems > go
away. This reasoning works for most of us ,and not using cheap tape > WILL
It would be helpful (to me at least) to further explain what you mean by
massive dropouts and glitches. In my experience one knows they have dirty
heads when they detect a fairly continuous or systematic pattern of
errors. I don't know whether sporadic and unpredictable error
patterns are due to dirty heads or some other problem. Tascam factory
repair certainly hasn't been of much use.
Now back to more tips on how to use search engines, --Steve
From: Alex Sloley <axs666@earthlink.net>
Subject: NEW JIMI HENDRIX SITE!
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 23:43:33 -0700
caesar writes:
Hi All!
Just a note to inform those who may be interested that I have just launched
my new JIMI HENDRIX WWW site (also includes my Richard Thompson trade pages).
You can view it all on: http://www.univives.com
Enjoy!
Caesar Glebbeek
Editor, UniVibes - International Jimi Hendrix Magazine
me:
you mean http://www.univibes.com. very nice caesar!
*******************************************
Alex Sloley
axs666@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~axs666/
*******************************************
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