DAT-Heads Digest #664, Volume #3 Sun, 24 Aug 97 04:15:02 EDT Contents: CD-R mailing list is set up (Steve Logan) archiving vinyl>dat? (Bayard) RE: Win95 DAT player app (hyunspak@movi.com.ar) Re: D7/8 Battery Pack - how to - ("Charles M. Quinn") Removing distortion (recording level too high)? (Paul Benn) D5 or DA-20MKII ???? (Gardner William) stealth/midwest/iso,etc.. ("Cooper's") Allmans 8-23-97 Greatwoods ("Damon Ritter") Red Book Audio CD (Yangkun Zhang) Extra Tapes for Blanks+postage (gilp@ix.netcom.com) Old DATs (Doug K) Rental houses in Chicago? (Chris Gillespie) ISO: WinTaper for 3.1 (no DAT content) (ACR7@aol.com) Re: archiving vinyl>dat? (Seth Breidbart) Help - Fostex D5 and Surround ("Clark D. Ritchie") Sinead O'Connor DATs Wanted! (Ju Nguan Tan) Re: SP/LP & Resampling (Alexander W. Chin) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Logan Subject: CD-R mailing list is set up Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 10:36:33 -0400 Ok, I got a fair number of replies about setting up a working CD-R mailing list, and it's up and ready for subscribers. To subscribe: send mail to listsubscribe@navpoint.com, with the subject blank and SUBSCRIBE CDR in the body of the message It's default setup is individual mailings, but you can set it up as a digest just like Dat-Heads. The digests are set to 16K intervals for now. For a complete list of commands (digest, undigest, unsubscribe etc.): send mail to: listsubscribe@navpoint.com with the word HELP in the body. Only subscribers may post to the list, so make sure you subscribe from a real e-mail account. To post a message once you are subscribe, send the message to cdr@navpoint.com - it will then be included in the next digest. Direct any questions directly to me, steve@navpoint.com. Steve steve@navpoint.com ========================================= Steve Logan Navpoint Internet Access Byte Support, Inc. v: 215-836-4600 f: 215-836-2728 http://www.navpoint.com Now with 56K X2 access!!! ========================================= ------------------------------ From: Bayard Subject: archiving vinyl>dat? Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 10:41:18 -0400 (EDT) I have some phonograph records I need to copy to DAT... I assume I should use 48khz; what about EQ? Also, I assume I cannot plug the turntable directly into the DAT, but need to plug it into a stereo with phono inputs? out of curiosity, what would happen if i plugged it directly in? any advice via email appreciated. also, fyi, I have used one of the two tapes kindly sent me by Joe Navalance, with no problems (I know some of you are still skittish about KAO tape stock!) There appear to be errors, but they are not significant enough to cause any noise, and my decks have not been shed upon by this virgin KAO stock. =b ------------------------------ From: hyunspak@movi.com.ar Subject: RE: Win95 DAT player app Reply-To: Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 13:11:40 -0300 Hi! Jeffrey W. Speegle wrote: >I'm searching for a Win95 app what will play DATs' >on a DDS drive over the SCSI bus; much like SGI's >datman program. Have you been listening audio dat from your backup drive and now do you want win95 apps? The SGI datman let you do that? I have an Archive Python DAT drive and when I put an audio dat the drive 's leds flashing indicating that it's an audio dat. But I can't find audio out connectors in this drive and the manual don't explain about that. ------------------------------ From: "Charles M. Quinn" Subject: Re: D7/8 Battery Pack - how to - Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 10:47:24 -0700 (MST) Better than buying just the plug and wiring it yourself is to go to an electronics supply house, look in the yellow pages. The one near me had the right plug with an attached six foot cord with some other funny connector on the other end, snip, check polarity, solder to the battery pack and you are off for hours of taping. Took my deck with me, guy in the electronics supply place was willing to open the bags to check to make sure the plug is correct. Strange thing about the D batteries is that you can run them down to about 4.9 volts on a long day, 8 hours plus. Let them sit about a week and the voltage comes back up. Is this a heat releated thing? Just how many hours do people get out of 4 D cells? Charles ====================================================== Subject: D7/8 Battery Pack - how to - Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 20:04:07 -0400 It is pretty simple if you have the soldering skills of a techy 6th grader. I bought one from a guy, David Landsberger (on the net) back when you could not easily get the correct sized plugs (those damn Sony proprietary plugs). But now, Radio Slack sells everything you need for a cheapo price: Yellow tipped plug: Part No. 274-1532 (comes two to a pack - keep one for a spare) ============================================================ ------------------------------ From: Paul Benn Subject: Removing distortion (recording level too high)? Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 11:24:07 -0700 Greetings: I recently made a DAT recording for which the recording level was set a bit too high on (various peaks over -3dB or more). I've digitally transferred the material into my computer and would like to minimize or remove the audible distortion if possible. I know that I'll need to get a WAV editor more powerful than the one built into Windows NT. Can anyone recommend what features I should look for in a WAV editor to perform such a task? Thanks, Paul pmbenn@slip.net ------------------------------ From: wgardner@thomas.butler.edu (Gardner William) Subject: D5 or DA-20MKII ???? Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 13:28:20 -0500 (EST) Hello, I'm getting ready to buy one of these two decks and I'm torn between either the Fostex D5 or the new Tascam DA-20 MKII. I'll probably be OK with either of them but after this I won't be buying any equipment for a long time. It seems all the Tascam owners I talk to say "get the tascam" and the same with the Fostex. But they say, "get the Fostex" Suggestions appreciated. Thanks, Bill ------------------------------ From: "Cooper's" Subject: stealth/midwest/iso,etc.. Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 15:45:37 -0500 brian, i agree with tony, we dont want just anybody accessing this info about stealth secrets. a few months ago i was shocked to read on this digest about the "oldest family secret" for stealth. of course i wont reveal it, not on this public fourm. the best advice is to just try to get your gear in, if it works, that is good. getting equipment into a venue is the EASY part, not getting caught is the challenge! get creative, i learned by trial and error that no show is impossible to tape. take it easy, thom ------------------------------ From: "Damon Ritter" Subject: Allmans 8-23-97 Greatwoods Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 16:04:44 -0400 Did anyone tape the Allmans at Greatwoods 8-22? I didn't bring the gear (and should have), lots of stuff to trade for it. Thanks. ------------------------------ From: Yangkun Zhang Subject: Red Book Audio CD Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 16:54:27 -0400 (EDT) I've written a general info file on audio CDs and the ways to burn them. This information will also be available on my Audio CD-R page at http://www.cs.unc.edu/~zhang/CDR/ ... In June of 1980, Phillips and Sony released the "red book" specification on Compact Disc Digital Audio System, and was adopted by the Digital Audio Disc Committee. It was later ratified as the IEC 908 standard for digital audio on compact discs. The IEC 908 standard primarily specifies the layout and data structure of the information area of the disc, which begins at the groove 46 mm from the center of the disc, extending to 117 mm at the edge of the disc. Each IEC 908 Red Book CD stores data in sectors of 2352 bytes each (please note that the 2352 bytes are after EFM demodulation and CIRC error correction, and are NOT what are actually on the disc physically). Each sector contains exactly 1/75-th second of 16 bit stereo audio sampled at 44.1 KHz. To see how this comes about, please note that each monaural audio channel takes up 44,100*16 = 705,600 bits or 88,200 bytes of data per second. For stereo, it is 176,400 bytes per second, yielding 176,400/75 = 2352 bytes per 1/75-second. Beginning at 46 mm from center, the information area beings with what is known as the "lead-in", which extends to 50 mm from center. The lead-in, contains among other things, the Table of Contents (TOC), which specifies the data type (data or audio), star ting time, logical block address (LBA), and length of each track (up to 99 tracks are allowed). After the lead-in comes the program area, where the data resides. According to the IEC 908 specification, all Red Book compliant discs must start the program area with a "pre-gap", or 150 sectors (2 seconds) of blank data. After the pre-gap, comes the data. For IEC 908 discs, this will be raw sectors of 2352 bytes each, holding Pulse Code Modulated (PCM) audio data in two's complement. Under the Yellow Book standard for CD-ROM as introduced in 1984, other types of data and sector formatting are allowed. Along with each sector is stored 8 bits of subcode data, named P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, and W, in that order. The first two bits, P and Q, indicates what part of the disc is being read, start and end times, as well as other play time information. Bits R throu gh W are primarily used in CD+G (karokee CDs). PQ subcodes basically control the pauses between tracks, or the data that lies between index 0 and 1. By default, there must be 150 sectors (2 seconds) of gap between each track, however, by editing the PQ subcodes, one can decrease this to 0. After the program area is the lead-out, or 6750 blank sectors. In 1988, the Orange Book specification (Was this ratified by the IEC? If so, what's the number?) for CD-WO (CD Write Once), or CD-R (CD Recordable) was released. The Orange Book specification added two extra areas to the CD (Can anyone tell me WHERE they're located PHYSICALLY?), named the Power Calibration Area (PCA) and the Program Memory Area (PMA). The PCA is used by the CD-R writer to calibrate the power of the laser on it each time the disc is to be written to (up to 99 times, since a maximum of 99 tracks are allowed). The PMA holds the temporary TOC until the permanent TOC is fixated. There are three ways to write an audio CD (only one of which is IEC 908 compliant). They're Disc At Once (DAO), Track At Once (TAO), and what can be best explained as multiple tracks at once. DAO is simply the process of writing the entire disc from inner to outer rim, without shutting off the laser at any time during this process. To accomplish this, one must have the TOC as well as the entire program area stored (typically on one's hard disk ) prior to writing. This is because the TOC is located at 46 to 50 mm from center, which is in front of the program area. Therefore, a TOC, or a file representing the TOC, such as a cue sheet, must be edited and passed along to the burner prior to writing, allowing the burner to write the TOC (padded with blank data until 50 mm), then write the 150 sector pre-gap, followed by the audio. The burner can either be a general purpose computer with an attached burner or a special purpose stand-alone unit contai ning hard drive, display, and its own keypad (note that these units are typically advertised in the back of Replication News as stand-alone replicators). (Greg Hanssen of ZA tells me that there is also a company producing a stand-alone unit with a built-in OEM version of the ZA2 audio card that can be used to produce DAO mode audio CD-Rs.) TAO is simple, write each track and then shut off the laser. After all tracks are written, fixate the disc by appending a lead-out and then, shut off the laser, moves it from up to 117 mm from center to 46 mm from center and write the TOC. The disc written in this manner is not an IEC 908 compliant disc, though it does play in most (nearly all) post 1988 CD players. The reason for this is simple, there is no proper transition from the lead-in to the pre-gap, no proper transition between each track (though the 150 sector padding between tracks are satisfied), and no proper transition between the program area and lead-out. Most annoyingly of all, as one cannot edit the PQ subcode in TAO mode, one suffer from the 150 sector gap between tracks, making the TAO mode unusa ble in any circumstance where the audio is to seamlessly extend across multiple tracks. The last method, or what I call the multi-track at once method, is the one used by stand-alone audio CD-R recorders. Basically, this is like the TAO mode above except that the unit does allow you to avoid putting an 150 sector gap between tracks. However, all other points of TAO mode apply, including the lack of proper transitions between TOC and pre-gap as well as the audio data and the lead-out. While the laser does not have to be turned off during the entire writing of the program area (unlike true TAO above), this method still has to shut off the laser after the lead-out to make the necessary journey from up to 177 mm back to 46 mm from center as to fixate the disc (i.e., burn the TOC). Of the above three modes, only DAO can create a CD-R that fully satisfies the requirement of IEC 908. The latter two modes can only claim to create a Red Book compatible audio CD, but not one that is fully compliant. (This is kind of like claiming that Linux is not UNIX, but is only UNIX compatible, since Linux is not based on SVR4 derivative code.) ------------------------------ From: gilp@ix.netcom.com Subject: Extra Tapes for Blanks+postage Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 17:46:18 -0500 (CDT) This offer is for anyone who'd like the tapes, but I'd prefer to give them to a newbie or a one-decker. I'd like brand new unopened DDS tapes of any brand except DIC since no one trades with them. I'd prefer Maxell or KAO. I have these extra TAPES: 10-17-74all S:MR>R>D 2 60m 6-11-76all S:MR>P>D 90m 6-14-76all S:MR>P>D 90m 10-6-81all S:MC>D 90m 4-21-84all Af>P>D 90m(Neuman u87 omnis spread 30 feet in 20th row>sony mixer>technics PCM 100) Amazing sound. I'd be happy to trade for these if someone has stuff I'm looking for. Otherwise new unopened blanks plus return postyage and these tapes are yours: all are A or A+ sound Email me at gilp@ix.netcom.com. Thanks ------------------------------ From: dougebob@juno.com (Doug K) Subject: Old DATs Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 18:18:41 -0700 I have DATs that are several years old. I have not developed a back-up system yet for my tapes. I'd like to hear from DATheads about how you deal with older DATs. How long should I wait before cloning older tapes onto fresh DATs? What do you do with the original, older DATs. Do folks back-up every DAT in their collection? ------------------------------ From: Chris Gillespie Subject: Rental houses in Chicago? Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 20:49:51 -0400 I'm looking for mic and stand rental places in the Chicago area. Looking to rent Schoeps, AKG, and Sennheiser. Any ideas? Thanks! chris chris gillespie crf_gillesc@crf.cuis.edu http://207.93.112.85/ 7400 Augusta #274, River Forest, IL 60305 "Knowledge of love is knowledge of shadow Love is the shadow that ripens the wine" -Pink Floyd, StCftHotS ------------------------------ From: ACR7@aol.com Subject: ISO: WinTaper for 3.1 (no DAT content) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 22:18:02 -0400 (EDT) Short version -- hard disk crash, no more WinTaper program. Forgot where I got it. Does anyone know where I can download a Windows 3.1 version of WinTaper? Sorry for the lack of relevance, Andrea ------------------------------ From: Seth Breidbart Subject: Re: archiving vinyl>dat? Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 00:30:57 -0400 (EDT) >I have some phonograph records I need to copy to DAT... I assume I should >use 48khz; what about EQ? Huh? What EQ? > Also, I assume I cannot plug the turntable directly into the DAT, >but need to plug it into a stereo with phono inputs? Correct. > out of curiosity, what would happen if i plugged it directly in? Distorted very low levels. Records need RIAA equalization, which any pre-amp with a phono input handles. Seth ------------------------------ From: "Clark D. Ritchie" Subject: Help - Fostex D5 and Surround Reply-To: cdritchi@turin.ra.intel.com Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 22:59:07 -0700 OK here's my situation. I moved this weekend and like most of us, took extreme care in moving my stereo equipment (original boxes, styrofoam packing material, the whole 9-yards). However after unpacking and setting up my stereo, I seem to have a situation. When playing back DATs on my Fostex D5, I hear an obnoxious cracking sound on my rear channel speakers (both). It sounds almost like digi-noise (or what I believe digi-noise to be). It sort of sounds like loose speaker connections - or as if someone is popping popcorn in my amp. The setup is such: Fostex D5 [XLR analog out] > [RCA line in] Rotel 960 > Rotel 985 amp > multiple speakers I pop a tape (that I know to be good) into my Fostex D5 (purchased new in April '97): - When I play the tape using any of the surround modes on my 960, I hear the noise. - When I flip the 960 to stereo, I do not hear the noise. (However I have noticed that when playing back in stereo, I can hear the noise through my center channel speaker; it is faint but noticeable). - CDs playback fine in both surround and stereo on all of the 960's inputs. - All speakers and equipment seems to be setup correctly (polarity, line out to amp, etc.). - I use high quality cabling and treat my equipment with extreme care. - I have used a cleaning tape on the D5. - I have swapped inputs on the 960 to no avail. - The 960 played DATs in both surround and stereo just fine before I moved. - The same tape (cued to distortion) plays fine on my D8 using headphones. - The same tape (cued to distortion) plays fine on my D8 using the lineout to the 960 setup. - The same tape (cued to distortion) plays fine when I use the headphone jack on the D5. - The same tape (cued to distortion) plays fine when I use the XLR out on the D5 to a Headroom headphone amp (which has an RCA in; the same cables/setup I use when I play through the 960). In summary, the only time I hear this noise is when I use some sort of surround processing and the D5. Any ideas? Thanks for listening… CDR -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Clark D. Ritchie cdritchi@turin.ra.intel.com DAT list: http://www.involved.com/ritchie/tapes My views do not reflect those of my employer! ------------------------------ From: Ju Nguan Tan Subject: Sinead O'Connor DATs Wanted! Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 02:48:45 -0500 (CDT) Hi everyone, I'm desperately searching for tapes of Sinead O'Connor's recent tour dates, especially last night's performance at The Vic in Chicago. Have lots to trade, please email me for my list! Thanks, Ju ------------------------------ From: alex@orion.unisearchmm.com (Alexander W. Chin) Subject: Re: SP/LP & Resampling Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 18:03:54 +1000 >From: pkmin@scimail.risc.rockwell.com (Peter Min) >Subject: SP/LP & Resampling >Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 14:28:47 -0700 > >I thought that a digital clone was just that, more or less a bit for bit >transfer? >The way I see this is that it is indeed a bit for bit transfer. On tape #2 >(the record/clone whatever you want to call it deck) the bits are spread >out over twice as much tape media. Nevertheless it is still a bit to bit >clone. Ok, let me throw in some comments. Grr... There are 4 modes of DAT for recording Microphone ---> A/D (48 kHz, 16 bits) ---> DAT (SP, 48 kHz, 16 bits) (Analog) ---> A/D (44.1 kHz, 16 bits) ---> DAT (SP, 44.1 kHz, 16 bits) ---> A/D (32 kHz, 16 bits) ---> DAT (SP, 32 kHz, 16 bits) And of course Sony's 'LP' mode, not so standard Microphone ---> A/D (32 kHz, 16 bits) ---> (some convoluted maths) ---> (Becomes 32 kHz, 12 bits) ---> DAT (LP, 32 kHz, 12 bits) In other words, Sony has a special algorithm to convert 32 kHz @ 16 bits to 32 kHz @ 12 bits, to record on tape. The magic numbers... 48,000 samples x 16 bits x 2 channels (stereo) = 1,536,000 bits per second For LP 32,000 samples x 12 bits x 2 channels (stereo) = 768,000 bits per second Vie-yo!-lar... (actually voila, but I'm not French), this is how they manage the LP mode. It has exactly half the amount of bits compared to the SP, 48k mode. So, you can roll the tape at half the speed, and record all the bits. Well, there is a little more to that where error correction codes, and subcodes come in, but that is the basic idea. The trick here is the 'some convoluted maths' to reduce 32 kHz @ 16 bits down to 32 kHz @ 12 bits. The sample rate is identical. So we are just talking about bit reduction here. They have some formula similar to u-law that gives different weights to bits. Long and short is... the shrink it down to 12 bits before it hits the tape. Upon playback, they re-expand it back to 16 bits. Obviously, there is some loss of quality (and more distortion). So upon playback. Tape (DAT SP 48 kHz, 16 bits) ---> D/A (48 kHz, 16 bits) ---> music (DAT SP 44.1 kHz, 16 bits) ---> D/A (44.1 kHz, 16 bits) ---> music (DAT SP 32 kHz, 16 bits) ---> D/A (32 kHz, 16 bits) ---> music For the LP tape Tape (DAT LP 32 kHz, 12 bits) ---> (anti convoluted maths) ---> (32 kHz, 16 bits) ---> D/A (32 kHz, 16 bits) ---> music That is how it's done. So if you get a digital cable and take the LP 32 kHz signal, it looks like 16 bits, although it actually was 12 bits. Now if you feed this pseudo 16 bit signal to a SP 32 kHz recorder, well you preserve all 16 pseudo bits. If you go the other way and take a true 32 kHz 16 bit signal, and record it on a 32 kHz 12 bit (LP) recorder, you lose bits, that get reconstructed via the maths upon playback. The reconstructed signal is not a true representation of the original 16 bit signal, but quite close. Last scenario. If you take LP 32 kHz to LP 32 kHz, you get 32 kHz, 12 bits ---> 32 kHz, 16 bits ---> Optical/Digital cable ---> 32 kHz, 12 bits ---> second tape Funny thing is, the expand 12 bits to 16 bits and compress back to 12 bits gives you the exact same 12 bits as you started out with. So this convoluted maths compression is identical, no generation loss. Obviously, the 32 kHz SP and 32 kHz LP modes have different quality, because LP is actually only 12 bits. Summary, i) If you go from 32 kHz SP 16 bits to 32 kHz LP 12 bits, you lose quality ii) If you go from 32 kHz LP 12 bits to 32 kHz LP 12 bits, tis a clone iii) If you go from 32 kHz LP 12 bits to 32 kHz SP 16 bits, tis still a clone, but why bother and waste tape? Hope you all get the idea. It works something like that. Really, I lie to you not! But more interestingly, I just got my WMD-DT1 (thanks Ted). Ted Matsumura sold it to me, and I couldn't resist taking my screwdriver to it. Taken it totally to pieces like I did the D3, and now I know how it works, should it ever ever break down. I took photos with a digital camera, and I will upload them soon. Took pictures of all the parts, the head assembly, cassette cage, springs, screws, boards, motors, dust, hairs, grime, grease and so on. Should provide some viewing pleasure. Ok, everybody, go back to sleep now. This topic is dead, nobody is clueless no more (I hope). Cheers Alex ============================================================================== Alexander W. Chin Unisearch Multimedia Suite 232 Systems Manager National Innovation Centre E-mail : alex@orion.unisearchmm.com Australian Technology Park Phone : (612) 9209 4065 Garden Street, Eveleigh Fax : (612) 9209 4061 NSW 1430 http://orion.unisearchmm.com/~alex Australia ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** To unsubscribe from this digest, please send email to dat-heads-request@fedney.near.net with the word unsubscribe on a line all by itself. If your email address has changed, you may (optionally) specify 'unsubscribe oldaddress@olddomain' on a line by itself -- an example is "unsubscribe liam@mit.edu." Problems or questions about a subscription should be addressed first to dat -heads-request@fedney.near.net, and then if needed postmaster@fedney.near.net, never the list itself. 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