DAT-Heads Digest #59
Contents:
HHB Portadat Pre-Amp (Michael Morris)
Hand-held Boom Suggestions? (Jeff Click)
Splitting to avoid Sony's poor engineering (Jesse Lackey)
tapes missing absolute time (Rob Garland)
R-300 and SCMS (RWShepherd@aol.com)
Tape snarl help, please (Leo Munter)
Henry Rollins spoken word, HOB, Chicago, 2/13 (ONelson807@aol.com)
Bowie on Stern ("Wilkins, Mark D.")
ISO: Sessions @ W54th: Bill Frisell + Sonic Youth (Ray Peck)
mic comparison - Core Sound vs. The Sound Professional's (Seeley Scott)
From: Michael Morris <michaelmorris@lucent.com>
Subject: HHB Portadat Pre-Amp
Reply-To: "michaelmorris@lucent.com" <michaelmorris@lucent.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 11:58:47 -0600
All;
Anyone know how good the preamp is in the HHB Portadat machine. Is it good
enough to eliminate the need for a standalone unit?? Their specs say that
it includes a switchable mic sensitivity, 30db pads, and switchable high
pass filters.
Just curious...
Mike
From: Jeff Click <jeff@clixsounds.com>
Subject: Hand-held Boom Suggestions?
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 12:58:43 -0600
I'm doing some SFX design and am in need of a hand-held boom for some
field work. Does anyone have any suggestions on a good boom of this type
that won't kill a budget? Also, any assistance as to where they can be
purchased would also be appreciated.
TIA,
Jeff
O ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( 8 ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) O
| If your life doesn't involve a Macintosh...Get one. |
| ( ( ( ( C L I X S O U N D S ) ) ) ) |
| "Silence Is Boring" |
| <http://www.clixsounds.com/> |
| premier pro-macintosh sounds |
| jeff@clixsounds.com - aol: clixsounds - email@clixsounds.com |
| 7301 skylark lane - oklahoma city, ok 73162 - 405.721.3283 |
O ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( 8 ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) O
From: Jesse Lackey <jesse@lightlink.com>
Subject: Splitting to avoid Sony's poor engineering
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:24:03 -0500
Every time I think about this situation I get pissed at Sony for their
ridiculous problem monitoring digital-in. Such B.S.
> My rig is as follows: Mics > Aerco > SBM-1 > D-100. Let's assume I want
> to run two decks, one as a backup, or as a deck for others to patch out
> of. My options as I see them are:
>
> 1) Patch out of the line-out on the D-100-- or will this be a problem
> since the D-100 will be being fed a digital signal and therefore the
> line-out will contain "clicks" (with the D7 there was a clicking in the
Assuming the D100 is like the D3,D7, and D8 in this regard, you will be
giving people patching out of you clicks. Now if you are taping rock and
roll, it might not be audible. If it is acoustic guitar, or voice, it
definitely will be. Thank you, Sony.
> line-out when the deck was recording a digital signal). This will also
> suck who-knows-how much battery power from the D-100. Also the second
> deck will not benefit from the SBM-1 a/d.
It will drain the batteries faster. The second deck does benefit from the
SBM a/d - the signal chain is mics > micpre > SBM > D100 >(analog) OtherDAT.
The SBM a/d goes through another D>A,A>D stage though, which we'd all like
to avoid. Plus whomever is patching out of you has to watch their levels.
> 2) The SBM-1 has a 7-pin female connector in the side, in addition to
> the 7-pin male that attaches to the D-100. Can the SBM-1 drive a second
> digital-out (*simultaneously*) through this connector? I'll admit I've
Yes. I do this occasionally. I don't know about the effects on battery
life. (I use 6v lead-acids to power everything)
> 3) The Aerco has a mini-plug connector in addition to the rca connectors
> (which will be attached to the sbm-1). Looking inside the Aerco, it
> appears that plugging into both the RCA and mini-plug connectors would
> be equivalent to using a "Y" adapter. Does such a configuration degrade
> the split signal _to an audible extent_? Also, if the 2nd deck were to
> be turned off, unplugged, ect, could I possibly get a "pop" or humming
> sound through the other connector?
Splitting will probably be fine, but it depends on the circuit driving it.
The input impedance of unbalanced analog inputs is usually 20K-70K Ohms,
so two in parallel will give about 10K Ohms minimum. This is a very small
increase in current that the aerco output circuit must provide; I can't
imagine it would be a problem. I wouldn't split more than 3-4 ways though.
Pops: yes. I wouldn't let anyone patch in or out during a song. The
changes in resistance seen by the aerco output circuit (including possibly a
brief short) may cause noise. One time I was patched out of a soundboard
and a friend was running a deck in parallel, and when he plugged in the
signal vanished; it took him a minute to figure out that he plugged the
soundboard into his deck's output. And this was during the day, and he was
an experienced taper, and sober too. :^) (he wasn't running his deck, and
misread the labels).
Humming: I don't think so. The only way I can see for that to happen is
if the "cold" or ground signal you are providing makes its way to the AC
ground, and your deck has it tied to AC ground also. If you or the
person patching in is using batteries or a two-prong AC connector (wall
wart etc.) this won't happen (for two-prong connections, the AC goes
through a transformer, breaking the potential loop through the Neutral).
Comments anyone? I'm not very familiar with the details of ground loops.
> So what's the best option? I'd really like to have the one "master"
> deck isolated from the rest.
Yes indeedy, me too. Here is what I did to get around Sony:
1) if possible have the person taking a digital patch from the SBM. If they
are using a properly-engineered deck, they can give analog patches to
everyone else. But it is unlikely someone owning a Tascam etc. will be
able to connect to your Sony 7-pin output; so most digital connects will be
to other d3/d7/d8/d100's and they can't give clean analog outs, either. You
could bring 7-pin to Whatever cables with you for the benefit of other
DAT tapers if you wish.
2) build a little circuit that simulates a headphone, with RCA connections
on it, and plug it into the headphone out of the SBM. This is what I did.
The SBM specified 35 Ohm (? something like that) impedance for
headphones; I made a little ckt that is something within 10% of this, and
has RCA sockets in parallel across the left and right resistor. So, when
this is plugged into the SBM, the SBM thinks it is driving a headphone,
and there is a near-line-level "tap" available. It has worked well. If
you don't provide the headphone-simulating resistor, it will sound very
poor. Don't consider doing that. With the resistor, it sounds pretty good
actually. I haven't carefully A/B compared recordings, but with a casual
listen it was indistinguishable.
So what I do depends on the the person patching out of me. If they can go
7-pin digital, great (I usually don't bring 7-pin to Whatever cables with
me). If they show up with a few minutes before the show starts and seem
reasonably competent, with a non-cheese recorder, I'll split the output of
the Sonosax *once* and feed their deck in parallel with the SBM-1 input.
(My recording chain is B&K 4021 > Sonosax > SBM-1 > d8). Then there is time
to check that their deck isn't going to cause problems, and I let them know
to not split it further and to not unplug during the show etc. Otherwise,
the person requesting the patch plugs into the headphone out circuit (which
I may split up to 6 ways, since six 50K Ohm inputs looks like 8.3K Ohms,
which in parallel with the 35 Ohm "headphone" resistor produces a load of
34.8 Ohms for the headphone output. Not a problem. The 6-way split is
accomplished by a splitter box with seven RCA pairs wired together; a
signal sent to one is seen by the six others. Handy!).
Sorry for the verbosity but this is one thing I have spent quite a while
dealing with, and I thought it might be handy for other SBM + d3/d7/d8/d100
(& M1?) folks out there.
Jesse
--
Jesse Lackey, Ithaca, NY my personal page: http://www.lightlink.com/jesse
From: Rob Garland <phishingruven@mindless.com>
Subject: tapes missing absolute time
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:20:26 -0500
I recently recieved 2 shows from a b&p offer that don't have absolute
time codes. I was wondering it is possible
to somehow add it after the tape has already been cloned (by renumbering
the tracks or something along those lines). I did try the renumbering
feature on my Sony r300 but it didn't seem to do anything. If anyone
can offer advice on this I would appreciate it.
- Rob Garland
PS: Would cloning a new copy add absolute time to the clone?
--== DAT list at: http://dat.home.ml.org ==--
"here's to feeling good all the time" - Cosmo Kramer
From: RWShepherd@aol.com
Subject: R-300 and SCMS
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:35:30 EST
>The R300 manual states in the manual on the bottom of page 5 that it takes
>a consumer input (such as that from another R300) and ignores SCMS. There
>are no professional features on the R300 other than setting of SCMS through
>the analog inputs. But the digital interfaces do NOT conform to the above
>part of the law. The R300 is supposed to act upon the SCMS signal but
>ignores it.
>
>Any of the lawyers want to comment on this?
I'm not a lawyer, but I'll be happy to comment. The Sony PCM-R300 is NOT sold
by consumer electronics dealers. It can not be found at Circuit City, Best
Buy, The Good Guys, J & R Music World, etc., etc. All DAT recorders sold by
consumer electronics dealers, as opposed to pro gear dealers, contain SCMS.
The R-300 is found only at dealers selling professional audio equipment.
Hence, it is a professional machine.
Rob Shepherd
From: Leo Munter <leomunter@usa.net>
Subject: Tape snarl help, please
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:09:19 -0800
Once again, I emerge from lurk status to seek the assistance of the wise ones.
Sony D7. Tape a show, all levels looking good. Tape hangs while ejecting, but fast forwarding or rewinding eventually lets me remove it.
I then try to play it on my Fostex and it is silent. One BECOMES silent 1 minute or so in.
It's happened 2x so far. Of course, the tape you lose immediately becomes the one you want most. My thought is that in the snarl and removal the tape twists a 1/2 turn and what I'm playing is the opposite side.
Questions: Does this sound possible? How could I confirm it? Any other explanations? Any tips on how to find a twist and correct it if that's what it is?
Many thanks,
Leo
P.S. Please reply to: leomunter@usa.net
<bold>Leo Munter
</bold>1225 NW Murray Road Suite 201
Portland OR 97229-5552
All (503):
HM 297-4245
W1 640-3428
W2 644-4511
Cell 515-3651
Fax 648-8886
leomunter@usa.net
From: ONelson807@aol.com
Subject: Henry Rollins spoken word, HOB, Chicago, 2/13
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 21:12:08 -0500 (EST)
I got it, but didn't expect him to go over two hours, so
I didn't get the third hour (the hour with Iggy, Sabbath,
my name).
Please tell me there is someone out there who did use a 90m or was able to
switch tapes or recorded in LP mode.
Please.
Please.
Thanks,
Olaf
From: "Wilkins, Mark D." <Mark.Wilkins@alcoa.com>
Subject: Bowie on Stern
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:54:54 -0500
I've been meaning to post for a week or so that I videotaped part of the
Howard Stern E! show birthday party, the episode with Davie Bowie. He
performs "Fame," "Hallo Cowboy," and "I'm Afraid of Americans." Have it on
S-VHS Hi-Fi but can dub to DAT if anyone is interested. Can also go to VHS
(but not S-VHS, only have one such deck).
Mark
From: Ray Peck <rpeck@no-spam-rpeck.com>
Subject: ISO: Sessions @ W54th: Bill Frisell + Sonic Youth
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:00:32 -0800
The morons at KQED tonight ran the Bobby McFerrin Sessions @ W54th,
instead of the scheduled Bill Frisell + Sonic Youth one. Anyone get
shis week's scheduled show? I'm looking for both halves, but they
obviously don't have to come from the same taper. . .
I'm also looking for the Leo Kottke one, which I got from our other PBS
station which is broadcasting them in mono (!).
Lots of stuff to trade in return (although as a warning, I'm a few eweks
behind at the moment).
==========
Note: my email address is hacked as an anti-spam measure.
Please remove the 'no-spam-' to reply to me. Sorry for the inconvenience.
======================================================================
"The road to ruin is always kept in good repair." - anon.
From: Seeley Scott <Seeley_Scott@prc.com>
Subject: mic comparison - Core Sound vs. The Sound Professional's
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 03:39:25 -0500
Hi all,
Just bought my first set(s) of stealth mikes a few weeks back, and
thought I'd pass on my experience to the group. This is gonna be a
long-ass post (and laughably amatuer to all the combat-hardened tapers
out there), but I thought it might help any other aspiring, "looking for
my first mikes" tapers out there... And no, I'm not associated with
either company.
Okay. I tried a $230 set of Core omni's w/battery box and bass rolloff
(a lot of people - including most diehard Core lovers - recommended the
rolloff option when buying Cores) and a $140 set of Sound Professional's
omnis. The Sound Professionals (SP) is a fairly new company, only been
making mics for about a year old, and I haven't seen much mention of
here at dat-heads. So this should have some new info for everyone.
Both companies feel their mikes are worth comparing to the other's and
encourage you to trial-offer them. Both offer free 30-day trials. You
really should take advantage of this if you're interested in either mike
- I was surprised by how different they sounded. If you ask Len (the
owner of Core), he'll send you a long-ass review of his opinion of the
Sound Professionals mikes. If you ask Chris Carfagno (the owner of SP)
he'll give you a long-ass response to Len's report.
Read both. There's lots of good info in both. Although I *never* would
have tried the SP's after reading Core's report (which was very
critical, and also turned out to be innaccurate in some places) if I
hadn't read Chris Carfagno's write-up as well. For what it's worth,
both vendors were very, very helpful and responsive to my questions.
I'm not associated with either company. The point here is not to start
a "he said, she said" thing. The point is that if you're new to the
world of mics and taping shows, you should get every side of any story.
Plus the advice of every friend, email buddy, and vendor you can find.
Okay. For everyone out there in TV land, Core sound mikes are based on
$2 off-the-shelf Panasonic capsules. They modify the shit of of 'em to
handle loud volumes and supposedly improve the sound. Everyone seems to
agree they can handle 10-bazillion-decibal shows without distorting. If
you plan to tape deafening shows, you really outta trial-offer the Cores
and give 'em a shot.
The SP's (and I believe Marcsounds, the Oades, and others) are based on
the exact same $2 Panasonic capsules, only unmodified. These vendors
say modifying the capsule is unnecessary, adds extra cost, and may
actually make the sound worse. They say that the unmodified capsules
handle all but the loudest speed-metal shows as well as or better than
the modified versinos. Len feels this is total horseshit. Who's right?
Yeegads, all this has been violently hashed and rehashed in the digests
- it's not my intent to reopen this thread. So I'd encourage any
interested beginners to use the search engine on the dat-heads home page
and you'll find all the info on this than you want. Then test 'em both
and let your ears be the judge.
I can only pass along my own experience. Myself, I found I could get a
MUCH better sound from the SP's. To be honest, they both sounded about
the same to me when the SP's were set to a minimal bass rolloff (to
match the Cores). Both were usually wayyyy too bassy. But with the
SP's, I could vary the rolloff and come up with a tremendously more
pleasing end product. Much. Much. Much. And also much closer to the
*original* sound (more below). The more versatile SP's also have a
smaller battery box and $90 cheaper price tag, but it was the sound I
was most interested in.
I gotta admit, I didn't test 'em both in 140-dbl conditions. But then,
that's not where my taping interests lie. I do go to monster-rock metal
club shows, but for taping I'm more into outdoor shows like HORDE, the
Allman Bros, etc. and also various folk festivals - where the sound can
be pretty damn loud but not threshold-of-pain deafening.
My testing was admittedly pretty amateur. Later I re-tested in a club,
with basically the same results, but most of my initial testing was done
sitting in front of a real loud stereo. Cheesy conditions were as
follows:
Sitting in a living room, full-size stereo blasting at various levels
(pretty goddam loud in a small room), playing both acoustic and hard
rock music, with both brands of mikes clipped in pairs right next to
each other (left & left channels on one side, right & right on the
other). Not really all that different than a club I think - a loud PA
in an open room.
Okay. I play some music with the Cores plugged into my d8, then press
pause, switch to the SP mikes, and press play again. Then I play 'em
back and compare them to each other, and to the source sound. Then
repeat this test with different mic placement, different kinds of music,
volume, etc.
I know that room acoustics make a big difference, but my thinking was
that by A-B-ing in the SAME room between the original source music and
the Core & SP playback, I could get a feel for how well they both
captured the original sound.
And the end result was that I could get a *much* better result from the
adjustable SP's. So I'd really recomend that any other interested
beginners check out this company. Both firms have web pages which can
be found on the dat-heads home page (under the "Vendor's" link) at:
http://www.eklektix.com/dat-heads
Some of the physical differences are as follows:
1) The SP's that I got are hard-wired to the battery box. A screw-on
connector version is available from SP (for $60 more!), but I didn't
order it. The hard-wired version was simpler, cheaper, and I found that
not having a detachable cable wasn't a big deal at all. YMMV. The
Core's mics attach to the battery box via a cool-o little plug-in
connector.
2) The SP mikes have a half-sized battery box. It runs on a mini 9-volt
battery (a little over $1 at Radio Shack, I think), which lasts about 9
hours. They do offer a full-sized box for the same price, which is the
same size as the Core's box. Both companies' full-size battery boxes
use a regular 9-volt which lasts something like 500 hours. So you've
got a size/battery-life trade off there. I like the half-sized version,
though. Smaller is better, and 9 hours is longer than any show I'd
tape. All these battery boxes are made of cast aluminum. Core paints
theirs with a cool black finish. SP ships theirs unpainted.
3) The Cores give somewhat lower levels. Obviously, since the capsules
were modified to do so. So when using the Cores, I always bumped the
record knob on the D8 up about 3 clicks so they'd have the same level on
the tape. No pro or con, just a difference between the two.
4) The Cores offers two interchangeable versions of their battery box -
one with zero rolloff, and one that is hard-wired for about 120 khz I
think. But you only get one with your order, so you gotta pick between
them (I'd recommend the one with rolloff). You CAN get both, but it
costs $60 for each extra box. Or you can just get one box and then mail
it back to them for a free adjustment whenever you want.
5) The SP's could be varied from zero to something like 800 khz. I
compared 'em to the Cores when the SP's were set to 114 or something
(closest setting I could find to 120), and neither of these were
anywhere near enough in my tests. Both sounded much, MUCH bassier than
the source. This can't be chalked up to room acoustics because I could
A-B with the source while sitting in the same room. Why would
supposedly "flat" recordings sound so different from the source?
(Later - after I returned the Cores, Len told me that I'd apparently NOT
gotten the bass rolloff. I'm sure I asked for it, but there was
apparently a mixup because I seem to have been listening with a "no
rolloff" box. But it doesn't change my point because - with both mikes
- the supposedly "flat" recordings were anything but. Tremendously more
bassy. Expert tapers out there - am I making some stupid newbie
mistake? Enlightenment, advice and insults are *most* welcome.)
6) The rolloff settings on the SP's aren't too difficult. You have to
unscrew the cover of the battery box (read: leave all four screws at
home and use a heavy-duty rubber band to keep the cover on), and then
press these miniature switches to make the setting. It looks like the
fuse box in your home - one bank of up/down switches mounted in a
super-tiny case. They're real small, but I can flip 'em with the tip of
my finger. Or you can use a car key or the tip of the 1/8" connector
plug. There's about 8 settings - probably more than there needs to be
(hey, better too many than too few), so doing a little practice before
your first show is necessary to familiarize yourself with the various
levels and the settings procedure. After your inital testing you'll
probably find two or three settings you like and just use those. I
often used the max rolloff possible.
7) Workmanship and quality - both seemed excellent. I mean, real good.
8) There was one case where the SP's sounded worse than the Cores: when
placed very close (under 2 feet) to the speakers, they can sound tinny.
Not static-distorted at the higher volume, but tinny. When you move
them back, they sound better. The Cores didn't turn tinny when up
front. They still sounded bassier than the source, but they didn't go
tinny. Perhaps this is why people say to stand right in front of the
stacks (with earplugs on!) when recording with Cores at a club? In any
event, I found that using less rolloff on the SP's helps fix this.
9) The stock SP's mic capsules have a bright blue sheathing, but black
sheathing & black-painted alligator clips are available free if you ask.
The Cores capsules automatically come delivered encased in dark plastic
sheathing.
The SP's come with a lifetime guarantee. Take that for what it's worth
from a company that's only been around for about a year, but I can't say
enough Good Stuff about Chris's support, his quick answers to my endless
questions, and so on. The Core's technically offer a 90-day warranty,
but I know they regularly ignore that and service years-old mikes. My
coax cable came from Core and I also can't say enough Good Stuff about
Len's customer support. I think they're both good companies. I need to
do a lot more testing with the SP's, but in summary I thought they beat
the pants off the Cores in most taping situations. Folks, if you're
interested in buying your first set of mikes, you *must* consider this
company.
So let me close by saying again that if you're an interested buyer in
either of these mikes, GET BOTH AND COMPARE THEM. While you're at it,
try every single mic you can get your hands on. Decide what's best for
your taping needs. Then tell us (or at least me - I want the input!)
what you find out. :-)
hope this helps,
Scott
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
To unsubscribe from this digest, please send email to
dat-heads-request@fedney.near.net with the word unsubscribe on
a line all by itself. If your email address has changed, you may
(optionally) specify 'unsubscribe oldaddress@olddomain' on a line
by itself -- an example is "unsubscribe liam@mit.edu." Problems or
questions about a subscription should be addressed first to dat
-heads-request@fedney.near.net, and then if needed postmaster@fedney.near.net,
never the list itself.
You can submit a message for inclusion in the next digest via this address:
Internet: dat-heads@fedney.near.net
Archives of DAT-Heads digests and related files are available on
the DAT-Heads home page:
http://www.eklektix.com/dat-heads/
End of DAT-Heads Digest
******************************