DAT-Heads Digest #562
Contents:
AKG c1000's (West Ailsworth)
FS: Minidisc and AT 822 (West Ailsworth)
AKGc1000s clips/adapters (Jeff Bigham)
96 kHz DATa (Gianni Pavan)
ISO Nels Johnson (Jeff Bigham)
Anyone willing to do B+P? (Ron Kalmbacher)
FS/FT Steteo Bar/Cables/Mic stand (GoneTaping@aol.com)
jon spencer on kcrw (Erik M. Johnson)
XY stuff (art@execuchef.com)
Will Spin D>D for Hampton PhisH TIX (Ralph Pitt)
Re: weird problem with Tascam DA-20 (Paul Riethmuller)
Re: X/Y or ORTF (Tom McCreadie)
XLR (NEIL)
DAT>CD (scott frederick t)
From: West Ailsworth <nourider@mail.geocities.com>
Subject: AKG c1000's
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:03:51 -0300
I own set of these mics and used them to tape the Allmans show at the
Virginia Beach Amp last month. I was running the hyper pattern from beside
the board and had wonderful results. I even think the tapes sound better
than the ones I have from the Phish Va Beach show. I was patched into AKG
480/hyper>beyer>dap1 that were running from the same place as my c1000's at
Allmans and I think the Allman tapes are better.
West
From: West Ailsworth <nourider@mail.geocities.com>
Subject: FS: Minidisc and AT 822
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:08:56 -0300
I'm trying to get rid of my MiniDisc taping rig. Here's what I've got:
Sony MZ-R30 portable MiniDisc recorder
Audio-Technica 822 Stereo Microphone (with cables and shock mount)
RadioShack portable 4-channel mixer (for adjusting the levels on the MD
while recording)
I am asking $450 for the whole rig, which is all in perfect condition.
However, I am willing to sell the items individualy. Please give me an
e-mail if you are interested. Thanks.
West Ailsworth
nourider@geocities.com
From: Jeff Bigham <guyute@cyberrealm.net>
Subject: AKGc1000s clips/adapters
Reply-To: guyute@cyberrealm.net
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:23:57 -0400
I'm sure someone has run into this problem, so please let me know what
your solution was.
The mic clips for these mics have a smaller than standard thread.
They won't fit on the stereo bar I bought, that screw is much too big.
So either I need a couple of adapters, or I need to buy a stereo bar
that will fit these clips.
I've found one vendor that carries these clips...but I'm not sure if
they're the exact measurements that I need. And the vendor couldn't tell
me either.
Any info would be greatly appreciated!
Jeff
From: Gianni Pavan <gpavan@telnetwork.it>
Subject: 96 kHz DATa
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:27:45 +0200
Dear Kristine,
As far as I know, there are two very good 96 kHz DAT recorders: the Pioneer
DC88 (portable) and another Pioneer for indoor use.
I actually use the DC88: it works well in the field as well as in the lab
and it allows to record flat up to 44 kHz! The anti-aliasing filters are
not too sharp and if you record sounds with high level components
(harmonics, for example) extending over 48 kHz, you may have some aliasing
in the range 42kHz-48kHz. Unfortunately this is a very common problem with
DATs and sound boards when used for bioacoustic research.
Recordings made at 96 kHz cant be reproduced on standard DATs (at least on
the other DATs I have); though, 96 kHz tapes can be reproduced at half
speed and copied analogically or digitally on standard DAT tapes. Then you
have to remember and to take into account that the recordings have
frequecies halved and duration doubled.
Concerning field use, batteries last no more than 1.5 hours; the DC 88 can
be powered by an external source with -12V and +12V (you may use two car
batteries).
I hope these info may help,
feel free to ask directly to me if you need further info,
Gianni
==============================================================
Gianni Pavan
Centro Interdisciplinare di Bioacustica e Ricerche Ambientali
Universita' degli Studi di Pavia
Via Taramelli 24
27100 PAVIA, ITALIA
Tel/Fax +39-0382-525234
Tel/Fax +39-0382-526208 Presidenza
Email gpavan@telnetwork.it
Web http://www.unipv.it/~webcib/welcome.html
==============================================================
From: Jeff Bigham <guyute@cyberrealm.net>
Subject: ISO Nels Johnson
Reply-To: guyute@cyberrealm.net
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:31:41 -0400
Sorry for the waste of b/w. (if I had my deck back from sony I'd make an
offer to make up for this....next time)
Nels, you contacted me about making some custom cables for me, but your
mail is bouncing. I'd really like to talk to you though.
So please either write me back again, and give me a different email, or
give me a call at 1-800-334-8571 x-8842.
Thanks-
Jeff
PS- Thanks to all of you for your opinions on headphones and whatnot.
I just bought the Sony MDR-7506.
From: Ron Kalmbacher <ronk@magpage.com>
Subject: Anyone willing to do B+P?
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:14:30 -0400 (EDT)
Just picked up a D-10 and was wondering if anyone would be willing to
spin me a couple of DAT's for B+P?
Thanks,
Ron
From: GoneTaping@aol.com
Subject: FS/FT Steteo Bar/Cables/Mic stand
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:27:14 EDT
hey now,
realized i have the following laying around from when i was going to get mics
but i never got them:( Anyways heres what i have. None of this stuff has ever
been used
-Swivel mount X-Y stereo bar each side roates to for different stereo
configurations
-2 15 ft Whirlwind XLR mic cables
-1 Mic stand. Typical mic stand. Boom arm when straight up extends to 10 ft.
email me your offer. I would rather sell as a package and it will go pretty
cheaply that way. Also for those of you taping greek>Vegas and need this stuff
before those shows i will trade this stuff for clones of those shows.
From: Erik_M._Johnson@ddouglas.k12.or.us (Erik M. Johnson)
Subject: jon spencer on kcrw
Reply-To: Erik_M._Johnson@ddouglas.k12.or.us (Erik M. Johnson)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 02:49:11 -0700
Jon Spencer is on KCRW in LA tomorrow morning at 11. I would really like to get
a copy of it. If anyone out there in LA is taping it, or can tape it for me,
I'd appreciate it! much to trade
-Erik
*********************************************************
David Douglas School District #40
(503) 252-2900
*********************************************************
From: art@execuchef.com
Subject: XY stuff
Reply-To: art@execuchef.com
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:06:42 -0700
Enjoyed the recent post of XY recording technique.
XY works great when recording on or 'very' close to stage center.
The idea is to take a stereo picture of exactly what's happening on the
stage.
Offers fantastic recordings capturing audio from the amplifiers on
stage.
Raw and very detailed results that are not dependent on a 'soundman' or
some other type individual whose 'idea of a mix' can vary from show to
show, room to room, or mood to mood....
Results can depend upon the act and their setup, stage placement,
etc.....
W/ guitar and drum based music, it's very nice.
Sometimes lacking in vocals however. Capturing vocals from a stage
monitor can be somewhat 'weak to impossible'. Yet, w/ band cooperation,
and some tweaking, not altogether 'unheardof'.
Also if there's a horn in the mix, it may come out 'somewhat weak' too
whilest battling guitar amps for volume.
Acoustic music w/ no 'reinforcement' is totally fantastic. Natural
sounding and detailed...
The idea of using XY is to get a clean stereo recording that can be
enjoyed throughout repeated listenings. Art
From: Ralph Pitt <s0rapitt@titan.vcu.edu>
Subject: Will Spin D>D for Hampton PhisH TIX
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:14:29 -0400 (EDT)
Hey now,
I can belive Phish sold out on me in Hampton. I need a ticket.
I'll gladly spin D>D for anyone who can help me out with one or more
tickets (THEY DO NOT HAVE TO BE TAPERS TICKETS!!!) I'll send you my list
upon reply. Please help.
Ralph
From: Paul Riethmuller <Paul.Riethmuller@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: weird problem with Tascam DA-20
Reply-To: Paul Riethmuller <Paul.Riethmuller@Eng.Sun.COM>
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:13:34 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Rob Gronotte <rob@patriot.net>
> Subject: weird problem with Tascam DA-20
> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 02:35:05 -0400 (EDT)
>
> I recorded a tape last night with my DA-20. When I tried to play back the
> tape, absolute time is written, but I get no signal when playing the tape.
> However, when I play the tape in fast forward or rewind mode, I clearly
> hear the expected music, though in superspeed!
>
> Even weirder, the tape plays fine in a different deck, and other tapes
> play fine in the DA-20, including one made in the same deck just a few
> days ago. I thought maybe it was a bad tape, but I tried again and got
> the same results.
>
> Anyone ever heard of anything like this before? doesn't make sense to
> me...if there is something wrong with the deck's play function, why does
> it play other tapes fine, and if there is something wrong with the record,
> why does the tape play fine in another deck?
>
> Rob
Rob, I've had this exact situation twice on my Tascam DA-30 MK II
which otherwise works flawlessly. It's about 3 years old and has only
had fairly light use.
My thinking is that it is either some kind of firmware bug or that
they way the frames are written on the tape makes the Tascam think
it's not audio, hence muting the DAC. (Or both).
I was thinking of putting my deck in for factory service and hoping
there was a firmware upgrade they could do at the same time.
It's bloody annoying when it happens. Everything looks fine while you are
laying down 2 hours worth of music, only to find you cant play it back.
Anyone else got any ideas ?
Cheers
Paul
From: Tom McCreadie <mccreadi@simplex.nl>
Subject: Re: X/Y or ORTF
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 20:34:33 +0200
In Digest #557, Paul Galis wrote
>I taped a show last night using an X/Y mic configuration as opposed to my
>usual ORTF and I was impressed with the results. There seemed to be better
>stereo separation and a more defined low end. I'd like to hear some
>feedback on this since almost all of the tapers that I see at shows are
>running ORTF patterns, or something close to it anyhow. Thanks.
Paul, you have opened up a huge complex topic here, yet given us insufficient
information to get our teeth into. It would be helpful to know:
- Did the X/Y config employ the same cardioid pattern mics as for ORTF?
- The selected X/Y intercapsule angle? - 90, 110 (ORTF) 120, 130 deg. etc.?
- Mic quality - e.g. any raggedness and narrowing of off-axis response
- Were you recording sounds which emanated from their own discrete geographic
location on the stage (unamplified acoustical instruments, or electronic
instruments with only a local instrument amp etc) or merely recording the sound
coming through the auditorium PA stacks?
- The angle subtended to your mic array by the main L and R PA stacks
- Are you making your judgement from headphone or speaker listening?
First off, you have to bear in mind that a stereo recording is only an attempt
to present an _illusion of reality_ - intending to convey through your sitting
room speakers an illusion of the real acoustic soundstage. Unfortunately, in a
rock concert setting the sound coming out of the PA stacks is in itself
_already_ an illusion of reality, as delivered by the sound crew to the
audience, Using a somewhat flawed analogy, do you really want to take a bad
photo of a bad photo of the Grand Canyon? And this illusion is in any case
rather feeble as there never was a "reference" original soundstage. Most of
what I hear coming out of PA stacks is either simply mono or - not to be
confused with stereo - panpotted multi-mono, where the instruments are strung
out in a one-dimensional line between your sitting room speakers like garments
pegged on a washing line.
What kind of stereo representation are coincident X/Y (intensity stereo ) and
ORTF (intensity + time delay) capable of?.
In intensity stereo you need to generate a replay level difference of about 15
dB between your L and R sitting room speakers to give the impression that a
sound source is coming from the extreme edge of the listening soundstage (i.e.
the arc between speakers sited perhaps +30 and -30 deg. off the listening
axis). Cardioid mics with an r,@ polar pattern of r = 0.5 + 0.5cos@ (sorry no
'theta' on my keyboard <g>) will only be 6 dB down at 90 deg. off-axis, so
recordings made with X/Y cardioids crossed at 90 deg. will give a much too
narrow soundstage. A corollary, though, is that they have a large "recording
angle" or "acceptance angle" of 180 deg. i.e. 90 deg, due left and right of the
mic position. This is the angle over which the original sound sources would
have to be dispensed in order that they fully utilize and spread over the
available soundstage of your speakers.
This could be one explanation of Paul's observations - his PA stacks were
extreme right and left of his position and could only be "accommodated" by the
large acceptance angle of the X/Y's. By contrast, the ORTF configuration has an
acceptance angle of 100 deg. (+50 and -50 deg. from straight ahead) so the
outside edge of the soundstage - say the last 30% - may be bunching around the
sitting room speakers.
Widening the cardioid angle to about 130 deg. gives more stereo width, but an
even wider and evenly distributed soundstage is to be had by going to narrower
bipolar patterns such as Fig-8's (cos@) or hypercardioids (say 1/4 + 3/4.cos@)
and at the same time arranging that the main axis of the one mic falls in the
null axis of the other. This would be 90 deg. for Fig-8's (Blumlein) and
105-120 deg. for hypercardioid (109 deg. for Schoeps Mk 41). With real-world
mics, whose off-axis response is often ragged and narrows at higher
frequencies, the most common consequence of widening the intercapsule angle is
to cause the centre image to recede (often useful if a soloist is too loud),
This may also be what Paul was observing and interpreting as 'better stereo
separation'...mainly perceiving a more solid centre image since the X/Y's
happened to be at less than the 110 deg. of the ORTF's? Also, since deep bass
is usually panned centre, this could account for the 'more defined low end'.
Spacing the mics a few cm. apart as in ORTF etc, to augment intensity- with
phase and arrival time information, does increase the width, but one does not
get an even linear distribution across the soundstage. Moreover, continuous
sounds can image differently from staccato, percussive sounds. Incidentally,
there is nothing tablet-of-stone de rigeur about ORTF, despite its 17 cm
spacing being reassuringly close to that of human craniums, Dummy Heads and
Jecklin Disks. Other popular cardioid configs are 120 deg. / 5 cm. and 90 deg.
/ 30 cm. (Dutch NOS). You can run the whole gamut of trade-offs between capsule
angle and capsule spacing, as long as you retain an awareness of their subtle
effect on issues such as centre image, acceptance angles and suchlike.
(Different strokes for different folks...Tony Faulkner likes forward-facing
Fig-8's at 18 cm.)
Some enjoy the openness, 'air' and you-are-there 'spaciousness' of ORTF while
others grimace at their phasiness and comb=filtering. ORTF would at least have
a greater risk of unwelcome and unpredictable frequency boosts or
cancellations. Consider say an acoustic sax played centre-right on stage: ORTF
mics would register intensity and time-delay info of sound emanating from a
single discrete location (neglecting hall reverb). If the sax were to come only
over the PA then the mics would now need to contend with intensity/time info
from the strong signal from R stack, together with intensity/ time info from
the same signal at a lower level from the L stack. Throw in the same signal
(perhaps electronically delayed) from other auditorium stacks and the whole
analysis becomes a dice game.
As food for thought for the curious with 80 character screen windows with
monospace fonts, I have plagiarized without kind permission <g> the following
graphical representation of several miking techniques - from an article by John
Atkinson, Hi-Fi News, June 1981. p 31
Ideal stereo stage
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
|
Coincident Fig-8, 90 deg (Blumlein)
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
|
Coincident cardioids at 90 deg
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Coincident cardioids at 135 deg
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Cardioids at 135 deg, spacing ca. 7 cm
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
|
Cardioids at 110 deg, spacing 17 cm (ORTF)
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
2 Omni's, wide-spaced 6 m
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
3 Omni's, spaced overall 6 m
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
The above only indicates the perceived locations of the instrumental sounds but
not of the distribution of reverberation. An even reverb spread can be very
important for classical recording. Some techniques are notorious for giving wet
puddles of reverb clustered on the speaker boxes.
Anyway time to stop...gotta go looking for some dry puddles <g>
--
Tom
From: NEIL <NEIL@directed.com>
Subject: XLR
Date: 21 Oct 98 10:42:40 -0400
here ya go charlie:
xlr = ground, left, right. originally (first used by [and owned by??]
Cannon, i believe) it was to designate a single cable carrying two audio
signals plus ground. later as balanced audio came into being, unbalanced
stereo usage all but disappeared. somewhere in the back of my mind i
seem to remember it being used in broadcast and lab stuff.
nowadays, EIA standards dictate pin 2 hot or +, pin 3 low or - , and pin
1 connected to the cable shield, and XLRs are the de facto standard for
lo-Z balanced mics and any balanced low level or line level audio signal.
some manufacturers may still reverse pins 2 and 3, so beware.
of course all the usual disclaimers apply, any corrections will be
gratefully noted.
Neil Sturtevant
Audio Products Specialist
Directed Electronics, Inc
2560 Progress St.
Vista, Ca 92083-8491
voice: 760-599-1342
fax direct: 760-599-3142
fax alternate: 760-599-1380
e-mail: neil@directed.com
From: scott frederick t <fscott@hubcap.clemson.edu>
Subject: DAT>CD
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:21:04 -0400 (EDT)
Guys-
I am considering purchasing a CD-R unit to transfer my DAT's to CD's. I
am having alot of trouble finding info on the web concerning prices and
avaibility. If anyone out there can provide some insight or
recommendations, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance...
"...where the fools go
the rich don't seem to mind..."
Tape List- http://www.tapetrading.com/lists/f/s/fscott@clemson.edu.html
Eric Scott
fscott@CLEMSON.EDU
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