DAT-heads Digest #909, Volume #5 Tue, 29 May 01 14:50:00 EDT Contents: link needed - build own stealth mikes ("Bonnie & Cleve Svetlik") RE: Multitrack laptop recordings (Warren Melnick) DAT recorder as A/D? (Andrew Haley) ISO Galactic at the Greek ("DeMatt Harkins") extra disco biscuits 4/10/99 for BnP (jimmy sellers) re: DAT recorder as A/D? ("Slipkid") RE: DAT recorder as A/D? (Warren Melnick) best rig at any price? ("Chris M Hickman") FS: 2 tixs for U2 Hartford 6/3 ("American-Digital") New mailing list for creation of 24/96 Hard disk recorder (Keith Shapiro) Re: MD vs DAT (Eugene Hu) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bonnie & Cleve Svetlik" Subject: link needed - build own stealth mikes Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 10:38:07 -0400 The link in the Dat Head Archives to Ted Major's "build your own stealth mikes" page does not link to him any more. Might some one have a good address for this page (or to instructions on building your own mikes? Thanks! Cleve Svetlik, Svetlik@Stratos.net ------------------------------ From: Warren Melnick Subject: RE: Multitrack laptop recordings Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 10:43:27 -0400 *** WARNING: THE FOLLOWING IS OPINION! FEEL FREE TO DISAGREE, BUT PLEASE DO NOT FLAME *** I would not expect to get 10 hours recording with this setup. The times for expected battery life are based on usage that only occassionally accesses the hard drive. Recording will require almost constant hard drive access, and even with the crusoe processor running slowly (which it may not do because of the constant hard drive access). I would do some investigation first as to what hard drive is in it, what is the battery consumption of the hard drive vs. the rating of the battery, and how the CPU is set to react to the particular consitions that you will be operating under. I have found that generally a laptop's battery life specs are hopeful at best, and certainly mean nothing at all if you are going to keep the hard drive powered up. They are quoting 8-20 hours with the quad battery. My guess is that the 20 hours is when you are doing nothing that requires hard disk access and that will let the processor run in minimum power mode. You will be grabbing audio from one bus, moving it to memory then to another bus (maybe, if not DMA) to go to the hard disk. With the HD powered up, plus using multiple busses, and with the processor running up near 667, you are likely to be closer to 4 hours. I want to state that none of this is gospel, but rather is based on what I have learned and seen having played with a bunch of crusoe-based machines. I could be wrong, but I would like you to perhaps check out one of these ahead of time (or buy it with a 30-day money back guarantee) so that you do not end up getting burned. Best of luck, W =====Original Message===== From: NASHPHIL [mailto:phil@nashphil.com] Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 10:56 PM To: dat-heads@datheads.phish.net Subject: Multitrack laptop recordings Hello, I have a few questions that I know some of you brainiacs can give some insight to. First, Here is my plan: I am purchasing the SONY VAIO PCG-C1VP (released 5-24-01) http://www.sonystyle.com/vaio/picturebook/index.html Along with the quad-capacity battery and external CDRW drive. The specs on the Vaio are: 15gig / 192 SDRAM / 667 Transmeta CPU with PCMCIA, USB, and FIREWIRE ports on the unit. That should give me at the very least, 10 hours of battery and record time. Even while recording in 24bit/48k mode. With 16bit/44.1k, the record time would be somewhere in the range of 15 hours, which would be about the max the quad-battery should last in record mode. Give or take a bit. Bottom line, this little monster should give me plenty of battery and HD space to record for 7+ consecutive hours, even on a bad day. Now, Step 2 I need a card that will allow digital input to reach the laptop. Or do I? I seem to really only have a few options on the laptop. USB is out, not enough B/W to handle the audio coming in. PCMCIA seems to be a great solution, especially with the Digigram VX Pocket. However, that card looks overpriced for what it does, and there doesn't appear to be another PCMCIA card that rivals it. 2 channels I/O and 24/48 are the max the VX Pocket can do and there seems to be no way to update it later on. It has 24/48 AD & DA converters and mic-pres built in, but with conversion going on inside the computer, there would seem to be some noise and latency issues to account for. Meaning, all of those features would be useless and it's only real value would be the 2 channel SPDIF I/O. So, the 3rd option is FIREWIRE and it looks the best to me. A friend at one of the studios here in Nashville turned me on to this wonder machine, and I am thinking of taking the plunge. Basically, it provides tons of I/O in all formats, phantom power, and Mic Pres for all channels, plus 24/96 AD/DA conversion. It can resample, matrix, monitor, and record on the fly. It's fully portable, even running on DC power from the laptop or AC plug in. Weighs 7 lbs and is the size of most laptops. (specs below) Seems too perfect to be true. This is why I'm asking the experts. Ok, so I get all this gear and I want to make sure it is going to work the way I want it to, so here are my questions.....finally Does anyone have any experience with any of these products? Positive/Negative? By looking at the specs, it seems that the MOBILE I/O would work perfectly with the Vaio, and any other computer with FIREWIRE, Are there any conflicts problems that anyone is aware of? Theoretically, I plug in a set(s) of Mics/SBD feeds to the MOBILE I/O via the analog XLR or 1/4 inputs, which should would power and preamp the mics.. I then connect the MOBILE I/O to the VAIO via the FIREWIRE port on the VAIO, which will also power the MOBILE I/O. Then I configure the settings via software on the VAIO and start recording. All of this without any other equipment, does all of this sound right? Will the recordings this produces sound right? How "Hi-Quality" are these mic-pres and AD/DA converters? Do these pres/AD/DA's cause any interference or produce any noise being near the CPU on the computer or DSP on the unit? Ok, I could go on forever...but I think yall got the general idea. And...I know we have been over this laptop field recording thing before. It actually looks like a reality now, so I want to find out what yall think. a HUGE Thanks for the help, in advance. Phil Harris http://www.nashphil.com/ ============================================ Here are the specs for the MOBILE I/O from their website...... http://www.mhlabs.com/index2.html Mobile I/O Location Applications Mobile I/O was created with the field recordist in mind. With features like eight channels of high quality mic-pre, each with independent phantom power, and dimensions of only 13.75" x 11.125" x 1.75," Mobile I/O fits perfectly under a laptop computer, and it weighs about seven pounds, so it moves easily and quickly. The box itself has rounded corners, designed to be easy on your hands - and your gig bag. The sophisticated design of Mobile I/O allows you to power the unit directly through the FireWire® bus, so you can run off of your computer's power supply, another reason why Mobile I/O is the ideal solution for field recording. ======================== Mobile I/O is able to be operated in "stand-alone" mode, without a computer present. Mobile I/O 2882+DSP can be programmed for "instant on" processing operation. A settings library enables the user to program the parameters of Mobile I/O and save them, so a Mobile I/O can, for instance, become a dedicated speaker man- agement system, recalling the programmed setup when powered on, as a "set and forget" situation. Alterna- tively, the settings library enables the user to recall settings in the in the studio and bring the Mobile I/O into the field pre-programmed for a specific purpose, a feature that benefits a mixing engineer using the unit for a live performance, for instance. ============================== Mobile I/O Functional Specs Goals of the device Mobile I/O will provide the user with the following benefits and functionality: 1. Audio I/O and processing for FireWire® equipped Macintosh and Windows computers. . Native Drivers for both platforms . ASIO Pro Drivers for both platforms 2. 8 channels of high-quality 24 bit 96 kHz analog audio input with Mic Pre's (4x XLR-F, 4x 1/4" TRS) .Total of 8 channels of analog input 3. 8 channels of high-quality 24 bit 96 kHz analog audio output from computer (8x 1/4" TRS) .Total of 8 channels of analog output 4. 2 channels of high-quality 24 bit 96 kHz analog headphone output from DSP (1x 1/4" Stereo) .Total of 2 channels of analog monitor output 5. Stereo switchable AES/SPDIF I/O with SRC (1x XLR-M 1x XLR-F 2x RCA) .Total of 2 channels of digital output .Total of 2 channels of digital input . SRC allows lock of different digital clocks . SRC capture range is 3:1 -- SRC from 48kHz -> 96 kHz on the fly 6. Word clock & 256x Clock I/O (2x BNC) [Switchable] . Wordclock mode supports 1x Sample Rate clock . 256x mode supports 256x Sample Rate clock 7. Supported Sample Rates: . Single rate: 44.1/48kHz . Double Rate: 88.2/96kHz . External vari-speed ±5% nominal [PLL Lock Range] 8. Mic Pre Specs (preliminary) . Low Noise/High CMRR Servo Balanced Design . Supports both balanced and single-ended inputs . Up to 60 dB of Gain . Switchable Pad for line-level inputs . Support for line-level, low-Z and high-Z sources . Switchable 48v Phantom power per input 9. Converter Specs (preliminary) . 24 bit/96k . ADC: 110 dB S/N, -103THD+N . DAC: 120 dB S/N, -110 dBTHD+N 10.2x Firewire 1394 jacks [400Mbps] . Allows extension of FireWire bus for chaining of multiple Mobile I/O boxes, or other FireWire peripherals . Allows multiple FireWire unit use for computers with only one port . Powers other FireWire devices by passing power through FireWire jacks 11.1x External Power Jack [For external DC power Source 8-33v DC 15W] 12.Mute Button for Headphone 13.Dim Button for Headphone 14.Full Front Panel Status: . Sample Rate . Clock Source . Clock Lock Indicator . Power . Phantom Power . Firewire Activity . Digital Input Source . Digital Input Locked . Mute & Dim Active Indicators 15.Full 10 segment meters for both inputs and outputs (16 Meters total) . 0 dBFS -> -60dBFS in the following steps: -54, -42, -30, -18, -12, -9, -6, -3, -1, 0dBFS 16.Ability to be powered from the Firewire Bus 17.On-board DSP for internal low-latency Super High Quality Audio Processing .Total of 2 signal processing units [in +DSP units] ============================================================================ ======== ------------------------------ From: Andrew Haley Subject: DAT recorder as A/D? Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 15:50:35 +0100 (BST) Digestifier writes: > From: "James B. Wilkinson" > Subject: DAT recorder as A/D? > Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 21:29:38 -0400 > > Andy McFadden's CD-Recordable FAQ suggests that a good way to > transfer vinyl to CD-R is to make a DAT copy first and then play > digital from the DAT into the soundcard. This avoids using the analog > input of the soundcard, which suffers from the very noisy environment > inside the computer case. This may have been true in the past, but I'm not sure any more. Look at this card: http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/CardDDeluxe/index.htm Is there any DAT deck as good as this soundcard? I doubt it. > So far so good, but I wonder whether it is really necessary to make > the DAT tape. That is, will any of these DAT recorders let you send > the analog into its analog inputs and get the digital out of the > SPDIF outputs without actually running a tape through the machine > at the same time. Yes indeed. I have a TASCAM DA-302 which does this if you don't insert a tape. It would certainly save a lot of wear on the > heads if you have a lot of records (good guess, I do). And it > would save the expense of buying a separate A/D converter; the > cheapest one of those that I've found so far is about $600. Flying Calf is $249.95 RRP, and it's supposed to be very good. Andrew. ------------------------------ From: "DeMatt Harkins" Subject: ISO Galactic at the Greek Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 10:44:36 -0500 Can trade DAT or CD. Don't blame me, I voted for Chris Chew. DeMatt ------------------------------ From: jimmy sellers Subject: extra disco biscuits 4/10/99 for BnP Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:51:48 -0400 hey all- i have an extra copy of the disco buscuits 4/10/99 on 2 60m tapes for the first person who will send BnP of 2 new 60m tapes. please let me know what brand you will be sending. thanx, jimmy dat list: http://www.delanet.com/~pjimmy/datlist.html cd&shn list: http://www.delanet.com/~pjimmy/cdlist.html IM screenname: jimmyphart "homer, how are the kids going to get home?!?!?" "i dunno, internet?" --- everyone's favorite cartoon couple ------------------------------ From: "Slipkid" Subject: re: DAT recorder as A/D? Reply-To: "Slipkid" Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:37:48 -0400 regarding this: >From: "James B. Wilkinson" >Subject: DAT recorder as A/D? >Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 21:29:38 -0400 > >Andy McFadden's CD-Recordable FAQ suggests that a good way to >transfer vinyl to CD-R is to make a DAT copy first and then play >digital from the DAT into the soundcard. good advice; of course be sure you're using a soundcard with good DIO that does not do resampling where unneeded etc etc >This avoids using the analog >input of the soundcard, which suffers from the very noisy environment >inside the computer case. So far so good, but I wonder whether it is >really necessary to make the DAT tape. That is, will any of these DAT >recorders let you send the analog into its analog inputs and get the >digital out of the SPDIF outputs without actually running a tape >through the machine at the same time. the tascam "da-20 mk II" will do that; it lets you use it's A/D converter & send the digital data out the back for connection to a digital recording device (like your PC's DIO card) with the da-20 mkII, just select the sampling rate (use 44.1kHz if the final target is a CD-R) and press the RECORD button without having a tape loaded NOTE: the older da-20's will NOT do this, only the mk II's (the decks look identical except that the mk IIs are plainly marked as such on the faceplate) i'd imagine other types of decks may also do this but i dunno good luck, - jon - ------------------------------ From: Warren Melnick Subject: RE: DAT recorder as A/D? Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 12:25:13 -0400 The older DA-20s will not do this, however if you have a DAT in the deck, you can press the record button, which puts it into pause mode. After a short time it disengages the heads, takes it out of pause mode and leaves the record light lit and still does the A/D conversion for as long as you want. W =====Original Message===== From: Slipkid [mailto:slipkid@voicenet.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 11:38 AM To: DAT-HEADS Cc: jimmy@CS.cofc.EDU Subject: re: DAT recorder as A/D? regarding this: >From: "James B. Wilkinson" >Subject: DAT recorder as A/D? >Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 21:29:38 -0400 > >Andy McFadden's CD-Recordable FAQ suggests that a good way to >transfer vinyl to CD-R is to make a DAT copy first and then play >digital from the DAT into the soundcard. good advice; of course be sure you're using a soundcard with good DIO that does not do resampling where unneeded etc etc >This avoids using the analog >input of the soundcard, which suffers from the very noisy environment >inside the computer case. So far so good, but I wonder whether it is >really necessary to make the DAT tape. That is, will any of these DAT >recorders let you send the analog into its analog inputs and get the >digital out of the SPDIF outputs without actually running a tape >through the machine at the same time. the tascam "da-20 mk II" will do that; it lets you use it's A/D converter & send the digital data out the back for connection to a digital recording device (like your PC's DIO card) with the da-20 mkII, just select the sampling rate (use 44.1kHz if the final target is a CD-R) and press the RECORD button without having a tape loaded NOTE: the older da-20's will NOT do this, only the mk II's (the decks look identical except that the mk IIs are plainly marked as such on the faceplate) i'd imagine other types of decks may also do this but i dunno good luck, - jon - ------------------------------ From: "Chris M Hickman" Subject: best rig at any price? Reply-To: chris_m_hickman@lycos.com Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:23:57 -0500 Hello fellow DAT-heads, This question popped to mind when reading the "under 1k" rig and then someone asking for the "under 6k" rig question... What is the best rig, mics, deck, and all, that one could get for a stealth recording situation at ANY price? I'm sure there will be varying answers, but I'd be interested to hear what they are. I've got about a $1300 rig and don't plan on upgrading past that, I'm just curious :) Chris Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ ------------------------------ From: "American-Digital" Subject: FS: 2 tixs for U2 Hartford 6/3 Reply-To: "American-Digital" Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 12:53:59 -0400 I have 2 tickets for U2 in Hartford on Sunday, June 3rd. These are for sale at face value, plus Ticket Master charges. It comes to over $180, but I will take $180 total, plus will send them FedEx at no extra charge. Thanks- Dan ------------------------------ From: Keith Shapiro Subject: New mailing list for creation of 24/96 Hard disk recorder Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 13:20:54 -0400 (EDT) Hi, As per a short thread on DATHeads a week or so ago, a few of us have gotten together to work on the creation of a small footprint (stealthable) 24/96 hard-disk based recorder. Currently we're formalizing our requirements for the device, but we definitely need help! We intend to go through a complete design and end up with a working prototype. If you're at all interested in this topic, or would like to help with the design, please check us out: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/diy-hdrec Thanks, Keith --- Keith D. Shapiro keither@iname.com http://take3.dreamhost.com/keither/ PGP Public Key: http://take3.dreamhost.com/keither/keither.pgp Protect your right to privacy; encrypt early and often. ------------------------------ From: Eugene Hu Subject: Re: MD vs DAT Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:15:54 -0700 Mike Hooker wrote: [snip] > to carry, but a worthy experiment. i always tape stealth, AUD, so all the > gear you guys carry into arenas that allow taping isnt really relevent to > me. it isnt the question :is DAT better than MD ? . the question is,for the > type of recording i do, is DAT that much better to forgo the easy of use of > MD. For stealth recording, I'd think a DAT would be better since you don't have to change media during the show. If you never tape sets longer than 74 minutes, then maybe MD makes sense, but changing media is just one more opportunity to get busted. -Eugene ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** To unsubscribe from this digest, please send email to dat-heads-unsubscribe@datheads.phish.net If your email address has changed, you may (optionally) send the message to dat-heads-unsubscribe-oldaddress=olddomain@datheads.phish.net and the old address will be removed. Problems or questions about a subscription should be addressed via these avenues and then if needed to dat-heads-owner@datheads.phish.net or postmaster@datheads.phish.net never the list itself You can submit a message for inclusion in the next digest via this address: Internet: dat-heads@datheads.phish.net Archives of DAT-Heads digests and related files are available on the DAT-Heads home page: http://www.solorb.com/dat-heads/ End of DAT-Heads Digest ******************************