DAT-heads Digest #938, Volume #5 Fri, 22 Jun 01 18:50:01 EDT Contents: How To: My Approach to Stealthing (David Cox) Fwd: Plant 5/27--6/1 needed (John Fink Jr) video/sound editing? (Jay Lyons) Dats For CD's Closed ("Paul Gibian") re: Two different mics ("Gary Davis") Minidisc LP - MDLP ??? (Frank Wong) Another New Soundcard at Klay's (Klay Anderson) Re: 2 different mics for recording (Aaron Heller) Some Items of Interest From Klay (Klay Anderson) Re: Coax vs Optical ("DRider") Re: Coax vs Optical (Seth Breidbart) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Cox Subject: How To: My Approach to Stealthing Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:48:53 -0700 (PDT) greetings -- i had someone email me about how i stealth - i figured my response might be useful to some of the folks on this list as well (or at least start some very spirited discussions!) Dave's Stealth Technique .... so to answer your question.... in houston, they are always WAY anal regarding taping (full pat-downs and i had to empty out my pockets)... so its COMPLETELY STEALTH. that said, i don't know radiohead's official stance, but my impression is there is no open taping allowed regardless of venue and i really really doubt you'll get a board patch... if i had to recommend, i would not approach the issue unless the soundguy is just super nice and receptive to talking in general. my stealth rig is WAY stealthy -- you essentially can't tell that i'm taping. here's how i've done it: buy baggy jeans/slacks -- cut a small hole in the top of the left pocket for wires. make a pouch (i used a hand towel and safety pins) that will hold the DAT and mount it to the seam of the pants where the 2 legs come together -- this makes a pouch that hangs down my left leg and doesn't show when i walk - the only way this would be found is if there was a pat-down between my legs (which i've never seen happen) -- make sure the pants have way big pockets (the super baggy skater-dude stovepipes that are always hanging around guy's asses make great taping pants (just remember to wear a belt!).. i've also had good luck with some loose-fit jeans, fatty-courdoroy shorts and pants, etc. buy a dark colored collared shirt (mine is polyester... cotton would be better b/c it wouldn't be so hot) -- make sure the collar is finished (2 layers of fabric) -- on the underside of each collar, cut a small hole about 1/2" from the front edge. at the back center of the shirt (where the tag is) cut another small hole. fish the mics through this center hole and out the collar holes. with thread (or elastic would be better b/c you could remove the mics so you could wash the shirt), carefully sew the mics into the shirt so they just stick out the hole. i also sewed the wire about 1" behind the mic to give it a better mount. then sew the wires in the back of the shirt to the tag -- this is the "stress point" that bears the weight of the wires on their way down to your pants. the important thing to remember when you're sewing all this stuff is that you never want to pierce the 2nd (outer) piece of fabric. this way, no stiches show to the outside. i use the optimus omnidirectional lavalier condensors that you can buy at radioshack. mic selection is obviously a huge debate -- it mostly came down to cost and an immediate need when i first purchased my mics -- i've had wonderful luck with them so i haven't looked at any other mics yet. (always set the DATs mic sensitivity to LOW!) i've had no problems with clipping even a fairly loud shows with lots of bass (radiohead, tricky indoors, etc). i think they run about $35 each or so.. the batteries are little watch batteries that run about $3 each at radioshack.. you might be able to find them cheaper elsewhere. i can tape quite a while with one battery but i don't risk it if its a show thats really important to me -- spend the money and get new batteries if its an important show! i cut off the connectors and terminated my mics using a high quality 1/8" TRS (stereo) plug and heatshrink to provide some strain relief - i also used kimber's silver solder to provide as good a connection as possible (if this matters is certainly a debatable topic) my rig is an AB stereo technique. AB is 2 spaced omnis (6.75" in my case....the width of your head) before you leave home, remember to unpack your DAT and record a minute or so of silence or whatever at the head of the tape (preferrably, do all this with the old batteries or with your home DAT deck so you don't run down your new fresh batteries) -- leave your shirt untucked and run the wires into your pants (probably not into the pocket yet in case you have to empty them... just leave them dangling down your leg). once you're in the venue, the bathroom allows you to do the rest of your work -- i know a good conservative setting on my d8 that doesn't clip at loud shows -- i keep the knob, Fs switch, rec mode, and mic sensitivity switches taped over so they don't accidentally get jostled. in the bathroom, always test your rig (remember to turn your mics on!) to make sure you're getting signals on your meters. always use a fresh set of batteries (DAT & mics) for each and every show. you can either start recording in the bathroom and engage the hold button -- then walk to your seat... or you can do the "pocket-push" by trying to reach in and feel the buttons. this does work, but it takes a ton of practice and you'll make yourself sick the entire show wondering if the DAT is really rolling -- i prefer just to start the thing in the bathroom a few minutes before the set starts. always remember to set your DAT to hold once you're rolling just so you don't accidentally stop it. with this type of rig, you can get great sound or you can get horrible sound. the ideal show is one that has general admission so you can position yourself in the center (ideally somewhere near the front of the soundboard). in general admission shows, you have the ability to move away from screamers, singers, and whatnot... be very aware of the sounds around you -- they show up like mad on your tape... try to get in as quiet a group of people as possible. since radiohead is a seated gig, you probably won't have that luxury. basically, try to buy tix that are in the center of the venue somewhere in front of the board and hope that you have semi-quiet neighbors. i've been at seated shows where there was litterally no crowd noise and i've been to some where it was unlistenable.... it just depends on what seat you get (good luck). be sure you don't scream -- try not to cough -- don't talk -- i rarely clap and if i do, its a tiny little golf clap (no noise)... in short, do not make any noise.. some tapers assume that since everyone else is screaming, they can too -- this simply not the case. your mouth and hands are about 6 inches from the mics while the next closest person is at least a few feet away. this distance makes a huge difference b/c sound volume over a given distance drops off exponentially rather than linearly (basically, be quiet!) that said, have fun. you're there to take in a great show not pretend to be a mic stand. you can bob your head, turn your head, move your arms (a little bit -- don't flail about!), tap your feet. just be conscious of keeping your shoulders sqare to the stage at all times. a little up and down motion will be ok -- but turning your body left or right will completly destroy the soundstage. in short, you'll look like you're a pretty square guy who doesn't dance! -- don't sweat it... also try to keep your hand out of your DAT pocket so you don't risk jiggling the mic cable. and don't drink a ton of beer b/c you'll have to pee! if the security is tight, don't mess with anything - just enjoy the show. load up long enough tapes that you don't have to worry (i use 90m .. 3 hour tapes almost exclusively so that i don't have to worry) - check your watch when you start the DAT. at the end of the show, i often don't even risk turning the DAT off... i just go ahead and walk out of the venue like normal and then deal with it when i get back to my car. remember to immediately flip the record protect tab and write down and label your tapes with all the info you can think of as soon as you get home. so there it is.. this is just the way i do it -- there are lots of other ways. a lot of people prefer to stealth with eyeglass-mounted mics or hat-mounted mics. my hair is very short and its hard for me to hide the wires coming down into my shirt. my technique is essentially completely unnoticeable. the other techniques can arguable get _slightly_ better sound quality but with greater likelihood of getting caught (i saw 2 folks using eyeglass mount mics at radiohead houston .. i don't think they had any problems with security) -- i have seen people use a "crokie" with their glasses to hide the wire -- a crokie is a neoprene thing that slips over your sunglasses when you're playing sports and stuff to keep them on your head or around your neck -- its hollow so you can fish your mics through there -- i haven't done this b/c i dont' wear glasses and i'd look pretty dumb in sunglasses at night. happy taping -- and be subtle! dave ===== david c. cox http://www.davidcox.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: John Fink Jr Subject: Fwd: Plant 5/27--6/1 needed Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:06:55 -0400 >>Hello! >> >>If anyone has these Robert Plant shows on CD-R, I'd appreciate a trade >>for them. >>Plenty to trade. >> >>Please email me. >> >>Be well, >>John ------------------------------ From: Jay Lyons Subject: video/sound editing? Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:05:46 -0400 Hi all, I'm expecting to get a chance to re-mix some sound bites for a small production I just worked on. I had mentioned that, as in CoolEdit2000, you can sample some of the sound and have it 'filtered out'. Would anyone on the list have some insight on this? My problem would be to extract the sound file as a wave so that I can enter it into CoolEdit2K. Then I could do my sample filtering and then onto re-coding it as whatever file I will need to to have it used as the correct sound bite in the video. I went out on the Usenet looking for some newsgroups on broadcast, sound, or video editing but there wasn't much out there. ------------------------------ From: "Paul Gibian" Subject: Dats For CD's Closed Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:10:44 -0700 These are all gone. There will be more later this summer. If you didn't hear back from me, sorry. I got a lot more responses than I expected. Paul ------------------------------ From: "Gary Davis" Subject: re: Two different mics Reply-to: gdavis@loop.com Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:08:40 -0700 This can be a perfectly valid approach, keeping in mind that in may situations, you won't get "true stereo" from a home-made tape anyway. I used to have a technique I called "omni/uni" where I would tape a little omni (non-directional) mic (such as a CSB) to the top front of a larger uni (directional) mic such as an SM57. The basic idea was, what's the point of taking two identical mics (ie csbs) and pointing them at the same sound source from a distance two great to get any stereo? I have also tried an on-stage setup with one SM57 and one of Radio Shack's "plate" mics. I'd point the SM57 towards the guitar amp, and put the plate in the front- middle of the stage. Of course, this was for a band with only one guitar and no vocals :-) --G ------------------------------ From: Frank Wong Subject: Minidisc LP - MDLP ??? Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Hi, I know this is a Minidisc question, but I figured that DAT people would know the answer. What are the compression specs on MDLP (MiniDisc Long Play. YOu can get 320 minutes on an 80 minute MD, but what are you sacrificing in quality ? I mean an 80 minute MD is already compressed ? Could some of the tech people comment on how much you are losing for MDLP, as compared to DAT or regular play MD. Thanks, Later, Frank Wong __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Klay Anderson Subject: Another New Soundcard at Klay's Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:25:25 -0600 AUDIOTRACK INCA 88, 8 IN 8 OUT SETS A NEW RECORD FOR VALUE Work and play like a pro...at a price anyone can afford! At $379.95 MSRP, it sets a new record for value. * 8 in and 8 output channels * Supported sample rates: 32, 44.1, 48kHz * 20-bit S/PDIF digital output (optical TOS-Link and coaxial RCA): 44.1 & 48kHz * Line level and microphone input/headphone output * Internal input for CD-Audio signals * Full duplex (simultaneous recording and playback) * E-WDM drivers for Windows 98/ME/2000 (MME, DirectSound, ASIO 2.0, GSIF) * Ultra-low-latency (6ms @ 44.1kHz using ASIO), direct monitoring possible Introducing a powerful digital audio card nearly anyone can afford! It's the INCA 88, from Audiotrak, and multi-channel I/O capability is only one of its stunning functions. Dual Mic Preamps and dual headphone amps are employed to provide live recording sessions without the need for an external mixer. Coaxial and optical S/PDIF digital output ports make it possible to transfer your final mix to the mastering media such as DAT, CD-ROM , MD, etc. One of the world's most powerful, crystal-clear sound quality digital audio cards is now bundled with Steinberg's Cubasis VST - the famous multi-channel hard-disk recording application. Suggested retail price: $379.95 US Thanks! -- Regards, Klay Anderson, D.A.,Q.B.E. Klay Anderson Audio, Inc. http://www.klay.com 1.800.FOR.KLAY ------------------------------ From: Aaron Heller Subject: Re: 2 different mics for recording Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:59:39 -0700 I would try using them as an M-S pair, with the Rode NT-2 in cardioid for the M and the Neumann U87 in figure-8 for the S. These can be matrixed into stereo with the channel mixer in CoolEdit, with transformers, a simple op-amp circuit, or Y-cables and a mixer. I can supply details. 15 or so years ago, I made a series of very satisfying chamber music recordings (a recital by Jean-Pierre Rampal among others) using a Neumann KM84 for the M and a U87 for the S pickup. There is a technical basis for using non-identical mics for MS, both in Alan Blumlein's original work on stereo and in later work by David Griesinger. (generically known as "bass shuffling". I can dig up citations, if anyone is interested). Aaron --- From: Colin Liston Subject: 2 different mics for recording Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:20:43 -0400 (EDT) I am trying to find out if using 2 different mics for live recording would do? I have access to a Rode NT-2 and a Nuemann U-87, one each. I would use them both as cardioids. Can I use these to record shows? Has anyone ever tried this? ------------------------------ From: Klay Anderson Subject: Some Items of Interest From Klay Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:11:11 -0600 I have a few items on eBay that are pertinent: Lot, New Shure & Hosa Audio Adaptors: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1440955589 AKG 451 EB: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1440953324 AKG 451EB: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1440952699 AKG 414BULS: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1440951706 New Sony DTI DAT Portable Playback Deck: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1248812704 Thanks! -- Regards, Klay Anderson, D.A.,Q.B.E. Klay Anderson Audio, Inc. http://www.klay.com 1.800.FOR.KLAY ------------------------------ From: "DRider" Subject: Re: Coax vs Optical Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:22:12 -0400 Hey Now! I enjoyed this post. Now, I have a question..... I have a Zefiro Inbox. As some of you may know it is equipped w/ a female 1/8" digi-out and an optical out. Usually, I give the optical to a MD patcher, if someone asks. I purchased a splitter of sorts from Radio Shack. It is a 1/8" mini to 2 female RCA connections. I take one of the RCA's to my OADE Coax cable>active Oade>PCM-M1. I give patches to other DATs from the other RCA. For the most part this has worked well. However, I have found that I sometimes hear things on my master that should not be there. Sometimes, it's like a popping noise that you can only hear in between songs. It's a low frequency and it sounds like it is generated from some electronic malfunction. The first time I noticed it was when I played back one of my moe. masters. That night, one of my friends had a D8 that was giving problems in the chain. Turns out he had a bad 7-pin cable. The problem occurred again, but to a lesser degree when I had another D8 patched out of the split. The guy said his 7-pin was fine at the time, but it looked questionable to me. This was on one of my TREY masters from Atlanta. I am not certain if my patchers got this sound on their tapes or not....? None of them have mentioned it at all. This made me think that it was my deck for a while.... However, when I taped the MULE, I had no patchers and the tape is flawless. Since then I have had patches for PHIL and WSP and my tapes are flawless. However, the patchers were other M1's for the most part. Does that have anything to do w/ it??? The patch is not coming from my M1, it's coming from the Zefiro. Next question........ My friend Brad patched out of me at SCI and used a 7-pin to optical cable. It was the first time that I had seen such a cable. Would I be better off going from my Zefiro optical out to a 7-pin straight into my M1???? Rather than from the 1/8" mini to female RCA(splitter)>OADE COAX>Active Oade>M1?? Could I hear a difference? Anything that I should know before I made such a decision / purchase? Part of the reason that I ask is my friend Bruce is one of these laptop patchers. At WSP Sunrise last Fall, he showed up late and during "Bear's Gone Fishing" he patched an RCA Coax into my splitter coming right out of the Zefiro to his laptop. I was not right at my deck to see what happened, but a patcher was. The patcher grabbed me and showed me what had happened. That laptop zapped the signal from my deck. Nothing! I immediately pulled his coax and my levels came right back. What happened? Was this a voltage thang?? No matter what the answer, I will never give a patch to a laptop again. So don't even ask. Luckily, my friend Mike was patched out of the optical out to his minidisc. He had no cuts on his recording. From this point on, I ALWAYS have given a patch to any Minidisc w/ an optical cable. He saved my ass! So now, I am thinking of getting that 7-pin to optical cable and taking that out of the Zefiro and using the 1/8" out for patchers. What do you think? Sorry for the long post, but I could really benefit from the answers to these questions as many others might as well ") Seven days until RED ROCKS!! SCI YA! Darrin ------------------------------ From: Seth Breidbart Subject: Re: Coax vs Optical Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:28:36 -0400 (EDT) Based on what you posted, you're clearly better off using the optical output yourself. One problem with a passive splitter is that it's directly connected to both decks, so either one can mess up the other. Seth ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** To unsubscribe from this digest, please send email to dat-heads-unsubscribe@datheads.phish.net If your email address has changed, you may (optionally) send the message to dat-heads-unsubscribe-oldaddress=olddomain@datheads.phish.net and the old address will be removed. 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