DAT-heads Digest #48
Contents:
Del McCoury is decidedly non-taper-friendly. (JH)
Mike Clark ("Steve Randolph")
ISO tapers for upcoming Umphrey's McGee shows ("skomp")
Re: 96K Hoopla (Will Wilson)
The Higher the Better (Was 96K) (Klay Anderson)
FS: Schoeps CCM4 Microphones and extras (Matthew Blum)
re: 96 khz ("Slipkid")
please read anf forward to as many as you can ("travitz")
RE: Reasons for 96kHz - Correction (Dan Heend)
Re: Reasons for 96kHz
oysterhead ("Chris Rees")
low level on M1...please help ("Eric Phipps")
ISO: 7 PIN / things fall apart (Richard Davis)
Re: 24-bit recording does NOT provide greater resolution ("Gary Davis")
Looking for the best version of Lost Sailor / Saint of (Dean)
ISO: Spain PPV of U2 Boston show (jeffc)
re: 96K hoopla ("david gatewood")
From: JH <kc7fys@pro-ns.net>
Subject: Del McCoury is decidedly non-taper-friendly.
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:11:52 -0600
>From: "Nick Georges" <nick@nickspicks.com>
>Subject: Del McCoury, taper friendly?
>Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:16:02 -0400
>
>didn't see him on the list of bands that are, but I have taped him before
>when he was playing with other pro-taping bands.
Most of the recent tapes of him I have there is some comment, sometimes
from the stage, NOT to tape him. He's well aware of stealth tapers, and
very courteously asks that they not record his performances. At least in
my experience.
That's what he says on all the recordings, at least...
Jonathan
From: "Steve Randolph" <srandolph@core.com>
Subject: Mike Clark
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:58:20 -0400
He is playing at The Grog Shop in Cleveland, Ohio
this Friday 9/21/01.
Anyone know his taping policy?
Thanks,
Steve
From: "skomp" <skomp@skomp.net>
Subject: ISO tapers for upcoming Umphrey's McGee shows
Reply-To: "skomp" <skomp@skomp.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:25:42 -0500
ISO tapers for upcoming Umphrey's McGee shows:
9/20 - Washington DC --> @ Grog & Tankard
9/21 - Pittsburgh, PA ---> @ PA deli Company
9/22 - Cherrytree, PA --> @ Woodward festival
10/12 - Cleveland, OH --> @ Peabody's
10/13 - Oxford, OH --> @ Camp Buzz fest
10/23 - Columbia, MO --> @ Blue Note
10/24 - St Louis, MO --> @ Cicero's
If you haven't heard or seen Umphrey's McGee yet, now is your chance to
catch a gig as they tour outside the midwest. If you are into the jamband
scene, Umphrey's is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED.
Umphrey's is also very much TAPER FRIENDLY.
The local UM tapers here would appreciate your help in getting any of these
shows taped. If you can cover one of the shows listed above, or would like
to hear some Umphreys on CD, feel free to contact me for more details -->
skomp@skomp.net
visit the Umphreys' website: http://www.umphreys.com
From: Will Wilson <williamwilson@home.com>
Subject: Re: 96K Hoopla
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:36:02 -0500
>What evidence do you have that it sounds better (or even different)?
You can not debate this issue without removing the other things that
influence the sound quality. . . speakers, AD/DA, cable, amps, pre-amps,
microphones, etc. You must only deal with the digital data, and the fact
remains that data is data. 16/44.1 does not contain as much information
as 24/96. Therefore it would make logical sense that 24/96 would have
the ability to sound better than a smaller less accurate form of
measurement.
The theory of digital sound conversion is very clear, but the real world
application of that theory is next to impossible. Higher sampling rates
and greater bit depth allow for higher tolerance of error and a wider
avenue when dealing with the algorithms of digital audio conversion.
These algorithms do not have to be as accurate, ie they dont have to
guess as much, when dealing with digital audio waves.
Its pretty hard to write an algorithm that can know when to guess 2.7
when all its given is 2 and 3. If that algorithm had 2.5 and 3 or even
better 2.5 and 2.75, it would be much more accurate and able to recreate
more accurately the original sound. That is what we want. . . the
origianl sound. As soon as the other aspects of sound reproduction catch
up to the digital audio world we may actual come close to acheiving that
goal.
-=Will
P.S. I do not revolve arround terrorists and I do not feel this list or
any other instituion should allow terrorist to control them. We win by
continueing on the same as before. . . my heart goes out to those lost
in this greatest of tragedy.
From: Klay Anderson <klay@klay.com>
Subject: The Higher the Better (Was 96K)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:35:20 -0600
From: "Gary Davis" <gdavis@loop.com>
Quacked:
> There is no scientific evidence that people can hear frequencies
> higher than a 48K or even 44.1K recorder can capture.
Maybe nothing published in Playboy, Gary, but, as a member of the Audio
Engineering Society, I have read and have references to many research
articles in their past digests and papers presented at various conventions
over the years dealing with this subject. Papers by big-time research
scientists all over the world. My close and personal friends in the
research department AT&T Bell Labs also have contributed much on this
subject.
Additionally, we must credit the living legend Rupert Neve for heading us
down the path of wide bandwidth. Everything he has designed has a bandwidth
of at least 100khz. Ya think that has anything to do with how good it
sounds? This philosophy also carries over to Manley, DW Fern and other
manufacturers of high-quality pro audio equipment.
On a side note, for a replay of an interview with Mr. Neve, see:
http://www.imusicast.com/html/rupertneve.html
Thanks!
--
Our hearts reach out to the victims and families of
the tragic events of September 11th.
--
Regards,
Klay Anderson, D.A.,Q.B.E.
Klay Anderson Audio, Inc.
http://www.klay.com
1.800.FOR.KLAY
From: Matthew Blum <miblum@yahoo.com>
Subject: FS: Schoeps CCM4 Microphones and extras
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:42:16 -0700 (PDT)
Hey there, I am going to be upgrading to some B&K's
here real soon, so I need to sell this gear. I am
selling a matched pair of Schoeps CCM4 Cardiod mics.
These have the attached 5 meter xlr cables and are
bodyless. These are perfect for stealthing as they are
the exact size and look of the MK4 everyone has become
accustmed to and you dont need the active cable or a
vms, these can be used with any preamp that accepts
XLR inputs. The mics have been used 11 times total
and are in pristine condition. They are in their
original boxes as well. I also have the schoeps a20
elastic suspension mounts and windtech pro mic screens
built for the schoeps ccm4. So you are completely
ready to go for taping allowed acts as long as you
have a stand and T-Bar. The mics sell for 3100 new
and the windscreens and mounts ran a little over 200.
Im am looking at all serious offers. Thanks for
listening. peace yall.
matthew
miblum@yahoo.com
P.S. have sample tapes if you would like to hear, just
let me know.
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From: "Slipkid" <slipkid@voicenet.com>
Subject: re: 96 khz
Reply-To: "Slipkid" <slipkid@voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:08:05 -0400
owen wrote:
>The point that interests me is this: in the process of reviewing the two
>new 24 bit 96 khz audio formats
>(SACD super audio CD and DVD Audio), the assessment that the sound is more
>natural, more real and has a greater sense of depth seems consistent. The
>adjectives used by audio writers are widely varied but the
>consensus is consistent - every single writer, even those who seem to
>disagree about most other things, seem
>to hear a substantial improvement over previous technologies.
i just wanted to say that i recently read a review of SACD/DVD audio where
the writer made a point that unless you sit in the exact "sweet" spot of the
sound targeted by the sound system (and i forget how many speakers are
involved, i'm guessing 5 + a subwoofer?), that the writer felt that there
was no perceived improvement over stereo sound from a standard 44.1kHz CD
(and not having to position oneself in one super-exact position with stereo)
and he went on to make another point that "most" people do not listen to
music in this fashion of a 100% perfect sweet spot the "majority" of the
time
(eg: not having the luxury of a perfectly designed room, or not staying put
in one seat but getting up/moving around, or wanting to listen to music in a
car, or travelling with a boom box, etc), and because of this he felt that
these formats would not reach close to the same market level as 44.1 kHz
plain ol' stereo CDs
i haven't experienced these new formats yet for myself so i really can't
comment from my own experience (and my understanding is that they are still
"competing" and at odds, like VHS vs. beta, and neither may catch on? i
dunno, will be interesting to see what develops over the next 10 years)
- jon -
From: "travitz" <travitz@op.net>
Subject: please read anf forward to as many as you can
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:47:22 -0400
Dear Friends,
I have just read and signed the online petition:
"Denounce Jerry Falwell"
hosted on the web by PetitionOnline.com, the free online petition
service, at:
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/falwell/
I personally agree with what this petition says, and I think you might
agree, too. If you can spare a moment, please take a look, and consider
signing yourself.
Best wishes,
jeff travitz
http://www.petitiononline.com/falwell/
From: Dan Heend <ccryder@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: RE: Reasons for 96kHz - Correction
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:12:06 -0400
Oops! That should be microseconds, not milliseconds(ms). Anywhere in that
quote from Ken Pohlmann's book that I posted that says "ms" it should be
microseconds, not milliseconds.
-Dan
From: <rossi@internetcds.com>
Subject: Re: Reasons for 96kHz
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:17:33 -0700
I feel that the quote from Ken Pohlmann's "Principles
of Digital Audio" was right on.
The benifits or 96kHz sampling are not necessarily in
enhanced frequency response, but rather in improved
phase response. Increasing the number of samples taken
on a 20kHz (or 10kHz for that matter) tone allows a
more accurate reconstruction of the beginning and end
of the tone. The human ear is extremely sensitive to
phase (especially phase differences between the left
and right ear). The improvement in phase response
between 44.1kHz and 96kHz sampling may be extremely
subtle, but IMHO it will be much more noticable than
the improvement in frequency response (except maybe to
dogs and the like).
-John
"The use of high sampling rates such as 96 and 192kHz
may seem unnecessary. In rare cases, a person may be
able to hear frequencies of 24 or 26kHz, far below the
cutoff frequencies of 48 and 96kHz [for 96 and 192kHz
sampling rates respectively]. In most cases, high
frequency hearing response is below 20kHz. Thus, for
steady-state tones, the higher frequency response may
not be useful. However, it can be argued that high
sampling frequencies improve binaural time response,
leading to improved imaging. For example, if short
pulses are applied to each ear, a 15ms difference
between the pulses can be heard, and that time
difference is shorter than the time between two samples
at 48kHz. Some people can hear a 5ms difference, and
that corresponds to the time difference between two
samples at 192kHz. In theory, this high sampling rate
may improve spatial imaging. Thus, it may take two
ears to distinguish between a recording at 48kHz, and
one at 192kHz."
From: "Chris Rees" <boilerman@provide.net>
Subject: oysterhead
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:50:14 -0400
just curious about the locations of the official tapers sections at the
pending oysterhead gigs. balcony? main floor? good or bad comments?
thanks everyone..
cr
milan mi
From: "Eric Phipps" <phippsce@muohio.edu>
Subject: low level on M1...please help
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:48:28 -0400
i am hardly getting an sort of signal to my m1. setup is SR71>PS2>SBM1>M1
i have put new batteries into everything, and i think i am powering
everthing up in the correct order. has anyone ever had this problem? i
basically have to put the mic right on the source to get any signal. Let me
know if you think i may be doing something wrong, havent had this prob
before, thanks
cheers
eric
phippsce@muohio.edu
From: Richard Davis <wehideandseek@yahoo.com>
Subject: ISO: 7 PIN / things fall apart
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:11:51 -0700 (PDT)
Namaste Y'all!
Sneaking my rig into Saturday's EcoFest in Sedona
(THird World, Merl Saunders, & BLues TRaveler) my 7
pin broke...don't ask me how...i will experiment w/ a
soldering gun as it is one of the wires that leads to
the green board under the SOny orginal gray protective
housing.
So, I've plundered the archives with no luck for a
schematic of said Sony 7 Pin (modified through
Terrapin w/ the in/out), is there anything out there?
And as i don't trust myself w/ whatever soldering job
i DO do i'm seeking a new-ish one (cable, not solder).
I use it for my M1 and my Dmic20...
And i agree that it's not o.k. to turn this list into
a springboard for political discussion or grief
decompression. I'm sure we are ALL fumbling around
these days...this is a place to come and see that
"Things Fall Apart" and come back together again on a
regular basis; only it's hardware, not heartware.
This does not make us callous tech-heads...just
broken-hearted humans piecing back together our
"normal" lives. I mean no disrespect to anyone in this
missive.
take care
richard from flagstaff
BWT: i will take the first three replies for a B&P of
the Living Daylights, 09.04.01 @ Flagstaff Brewing
Company, FLG, AZ. MG300's (onstage)>DMic20 matrix
(Samson Mixpad 4) w/ SBD sax feed>Tascam DA302. 90m.
__________________________________________________
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Donate cash, emergency relief information
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From: "Gary Davis" <gdavis@loop.com>
Subject: Re: 24-bit recording does NOT provide greater resolution
Reply-to: gdavis@loop.com
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:36:46 -0700
>As far as bit depth goes. . . more bits equal more precision in the
>recorded sound, forget about noise floor. If you have more bits the
>audio just plain sounds better because you are measuring it with
>a more accurate ruler.
To the best of my knowledge, this is NOT true. The steps in 24-bit
recording are NOT closer together, they just extended over a longer
range.
If anyone knows for sure that I'm wrong about this, please elaborate!
Now, it's true that a higher sampling rate does sample each wave
more frequently. For example, an 11Khz sine wave would only be
sampled 4 times at 44.1K but 8 times at 96K. However, digital
audio theory says this makes no difference, because the low-pass
filtering on playback will turn these samples back into a sine wave.
But what about a complex 11Khz signal; not a sine wave? Again,
digital audio theory says this doesn't matter, because the
harmonics necessary to make an 11K signal "complex" are
outside the hearing range. Essentially, an 11Khz sine wave and an
11Khz square wave sound exactly the same to the human ear,
because the ear can only hear the fundamental frequency, ie, an
11Khz sine wave.
--Gary
From: Dean <dean@deanos.net>
Subject: Looking for the best version of Lost Sailor / Saint of
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:44:31 -0700
Hey All,
Does anyone have a mind blowing Lost Sailor/ Saint of Circumstance
SBD that they may be able to send over to me online in SHN format
or atleast recommend so that I can possibly set up a trade with you
for that show? It would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Dean
--
From: jeffc <jcarvalh@lynx.neu.edu>
Subject: ISO: Spain PPV of U2 Boston show
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:09:42 -0400 (EDT)
Hello all,
I am looking hard and low for a copy of the Spain TV PPV of Boston 4
ELEVATION show.
I would love to get a copy on DAT and even Digital8 or DV of the video
feed as well. Hopefully someone out there grabbed a very clean copy of
this.
Much to trade as usual.
email me privately if you had success getting this feed.
Best wished to all
=====================
Jeff
BWT: 1 B&P of Radiohead 08-14-2001 Boston,MA (M1+AT831b) on CDR.
From: "david gatewood" <daveg_8@hotmail.com>
Subject: re: 96K hoopla
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:36:12
To those of you bashing 96K and 24 bit recordings, one question: Have you
heard it? I have and can tell you there is a staggering difference.
Irregardless of what the upper limits of your hearing are, the music just
sounds better. I had the fortune of attending CES last year and heard
literally hundreds of different setups: turntables, speakers, cables, cd and
sacd players. The best example is when we sat in the Nova speaker room
where they were debuting the new Mark Knofler recording Sailing to
Philidelphia. The source was the Genex 8500 optical recorder with no
outboard DAC. The first selection was the title track in 16/44.1. It
sounded quite good and had a familiar feel to it. The second was the title
track at 24/96. WOW!!!!! That didn't at all have the familiar feel,
instead being much smoother, way more open especially in the vocals and with
a much more detailed low end. If anyone there couldn't hear the difference,
they truly were deaf. It had little to do with ultra high frequencies, and
all to do with lack of grain and an inner detail that begged a closer
listen.
Many more rooms there also had either the 8500's or sacd's for playback
although the true analog folks had LP's of impeccable quality. I again am
going to be attending the 2002 CES this Jan and will be listening even
closer to those higher bit/sampling recordings as they were much easier on
the ears and drew you in to the music much more thoroughly.
Not only am I a taper, but a recording engineer also and have heard a great
deal of nice studio equipment. My former boss, a studio owner, uses Pro
Tools in 24 bit format, and when asked about 16 bit, said "That's for people
who don't really "Listen" to the music".
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