DAT-heads Digest #51
Contents:
24-bit/96kHz Experience and Comments ("Marc Nutter")
Re:Digi-noise ("Peter K Min")
Cheap Mic Question (Berryman Cpl C R)
A (late) reminder: Sigur Ros tour (Francois Levrier)
More on the new Virus ("Gary Davis")
ISO Grateful Dead 6/24 and 6/25/70 (Keith Forman)
questions on m/s vs. stereo recording (Jay Lyons)
Re: 24-bit recording does NOT provide greater resolution ("Alan Goldenberg")
SBM1 breakout power cable ("Ty Voyles")
From: "Marc Nutter" <nutter@sonicsense.com>
Subject: 24-bit/96kHz Experience and Comments
Reply-To: "Marc Nutter" <nutter@sonicsense.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:21:48 -0600
Hi All,
Like usual, some time has elapsed since I had a chance to read through
recent digests.
First of all, it is nice to see the discussion turning to higher-resolution
recording formats as the pro audio world did several years ago. On the
other hand, it is disappointing to see the scepticism that so many folks are
demonstrating. I find it odd, as I remember the enthusiasm with which so
many of us embraced DAT less than 10 years ago. Sure, I ran my Sony D5 for a
while as back up but like all who made the transition, it was obviously time
to take the step forward.
Yes, I own a pro audio recording equipment company and this may give cause
to
believe we have some ulterior motives. Nonetheless, as Sony, Panasonic and
other DAT
manufacturers are ceasing (or have already have ceased) production, at Sonic
Sense we
are focusing a lot of our attention on the future of portable/remote
recording.
While there is a lot of uncertainty as to what the future holds, we are
trying every soundcard,
converter, interface, computer, and recording device available. As a taper
of 14 years, I am
really excited by the changes that are being forced upon us.
As many of you have seen on our website, we have been recording at 24-bit
since early 2001 and we are psyched with the results. We have been using
various laptop-based systems--some basic, even somewhat older machines, like
we did at Summerstage in July while running SMAART and EQ'ing the PA with
SoundWeb, while typing notes to document the event, or some customized
specifically for audio recording-- with tremendous success. In order to
prevent redundancy and excessive length of this post, I will direct your
attention to http://www.sonicsense.com/24storys.html and
http://www.sonicsense.com/10myths.html for detailed information about our
experiences and some input about the ease of recording to computers.
To address the issue of 96kHz, we ran some A/B tests comparing 24-bit/48kHz
and 24-bit/96kHz last Friday. Equipment: DPA(B&K)4021's>V2 rca out to AD2K+
at 48kHz at +14dbu=0dbfs and XLR outs to AD2K+ at +20dbu=0dbfs. The 2k+ at
48kHz went in to a C1VN laptop using the Digigram VXpocket and the other
went in via RME's Digiface with PCMCIA card to another C1VN. The levels
between the two units peaked within .06db of each other in all tests.
Before the Govt. Mule show on Friday night we did some testing around home.
Placing the 4021's in the toilet and flushing (no water contact) was among
the most interesting sounds I've ever recorded. The doorbell wasn't as
exciting but the clanging of pots and pans was noteworthy.
Then, at the show, we were in the taping section, behind the board
(absolutely center).
The results:
Both of the recordings to the computer, like nearly all others we have made
are perfectly clean. We ran extensive tests for bit accuracy and have
absolutely no problems. Seeing the computer easily record at 24-bit/96kHz
for hours on end thoroughly alleviates any concerns I once had about
bandwith, etc... at 24/48.
I monitor by playing back from the RME digiface digital out to a Lucid
DA9624 directly connected to a Genelec 1092 sub-woofer and a pair of 1030's.
This is a modest listening environment. Not the best by a long-shot but
certainly above the average home stereo.
Like many have speculated, and studio owners have long attested, the
difference of recording at 24-bit as compared to 16-bit is considerably more
dramatic than the difference of recording at 96kHz as opposed to 48kHz.
Still, without a bunch of techno-babble to support my analysis, I find the
96kHz has a quality that I have been seeking in recordings for years. There
is a greater since of depth and space and a silkiness that I have not heard
in many previous recordings. Just like when we stepped up to 24-bit, the
bass definition is improved and the attack of instruments is stunning. The
feeling of the room is portrayed as well as I could ever hope for it to be
(or not to be, in some cases).
When listening to the sound effects we recorded, Mike said it best. "The
toilet recording at 48kHz sounds like a toilet flushing. At 96kHz, it
sounds like I'm being flushed down the toilet."
Is it worth the storage space or the extra hassles???
You'll have to decide for yourself. I love the convenience of the Sound
Devices USBPre directly into a computer. It sounds better than DAT and only
weighs about 1.5 lbs. plus the computer and battery system of choice. It's
fairly affordable and very easy to use. Adding an outboard pre-amp and
24-bit A/D converter increases bulk and weight but does deliver improved
richness, depth, and detail. Using the RME box in conjunction with a
pre-amp, outboard a/d, and battery, is an additional pain in the rear.
Nonetheless, I can't imagine recording in less than 96kHz/24-bit again
unless size and weight constraints are more critical issues.
For those who interested in hearing these comparisons, we hope many of you
will visit us at AES 2001 in NYC, November 30-Dec.3, 2001 (Complimentary
V.I.P. passes are available upon request).
Email nutter@sonicsense.com
For those of you in the Colorado area, come on by. Additionally, we will
have sample CD's ready to share soon. You will need a computer with 24-bit
(and up to 96kHz) software and soundcard. The better your listening
environment and playback system, the more dramatic these differences will
be.
For immediate gratification, placing your funds into better playback
equipment, or mics and outboard gear will deliver more noticeable results
than investing in 24-bit/96kHz recording equipment. On the other hand, the
benefits of higher word-length and sample rate are permanently embedded into
the recordings we make today and can be actualized down the line with
improved playback equipment.
Once again, neither the step to 24-bit nor the step to 96kHz replaces the
importance of the microphones, pre-amp, and a/d of choice. Placement and
application of the microphones still remains the most important factor.
Going to 24-bit is the icing on the cake and going to 96kHz is the little
decorations that make it ever so pretty.
Happy Recording Everybody,
Marc
Marc Nutter
Sonic Sense, Inc.
2755 S. Gilpin St.
Denver, CO 80210
Toll Free Phone (877) 324-4463
http://www.sonicsense.com
From: "Peter K Min" <pmin@rwsc.com>
Subject: Re:Digi-noise
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:08:25 -0700
"I got a tape a few weeks back and it's full of digi-noise. I only played
the
first couple minutes and stopped the tape. It was pretty extreme.
The person that sent it to me said that their tape heads were really dirty
and thus the cause for the excessive digi-noise.
If I try to record something new on this tape, will it gum up my heads?
Should I just throw it away?
Or is it safe to reuse?"
Without going into all possible scenarios(e.g. it may play fine in another
deck), here is a simple way to check:
Check the error counter on your dat deck (if it has one). If the tape
plays "diginoise" but the error counter remains low in those regions then
you are safe to reuse the tape(somewhere up the road diginoise was
successfully cloned as 0's and 1's). If, however, your error counter
consistently jumps up during the instances of diginoise, then you are
better off not using the tape any more to be safe. If you don't have an
error counter and notice that the diginoise tends to be in difn't spots all
the time then throw away the tape. I don't think this is very common any
more but some of the older DATs (>5 years ago)had a shedding problem which
lead to "travelling diginoise syndrome", Pete
From: Berryman Cpl C R <berrymancr@24meu.usmc.mil>
Subject: Cheap Mic Question
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 00:57:16 +0300
I am looking for a cheap set of backup microphones of the stealthy =
variety.
I am using these as backup to a DPA4060>D7; they are to be used with a
WM-D6C analog recorder. I am considering two choices at this time as =
was
wondering if anyone ever compared the two:
Choice 1: Radio Shack stereo lapel mic - made with Panasonic WM-060 =
capsules
popular in most stealth mics
Choice 2: Audio Technica ATR35s lapel mic x 2 for stereo. =20
Any input would be great.
Cpl C. Berryman USMC
BLT=A02/8 S-3 OPERATIONS NCO / S-3 INFORMATIONS SYSTEMS COORDINATOR
24th MARINE EXPEDITIONARY UNIT USS KEARSARGE
=A0
=A0
=A0
From: Francois Levrier <levrier@lra.ens.fr>
Subject: A (late) reminder: Sigur Ros tour
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:58:07 +0200 (CEST)
Hello people.
With the tragedies that struck America last week, it's an Icelandic
glimmer of hope that comes to the US and Canada. They started their tour
yesterday in Detroit and continue on with:
19. September - Massey Hall - Toronto
21. September - Berklee - Boston
22. September - TLA - Philadelphia
24. September - Beacon Theatre - NYC
25. September - 9.30 Club - Washington
27. September - Vic - Chicago
28. September - Womens Club - Minneapolis
1. October - St Andrews Cathedral - Vancouver
2. October - Kingcat - Seattle
4. October - Warfield - San Francisco
6. October - Wilshire Theatre - Los Angeles
There will also be a Japanese tour:
10.October - Club Quattro Nagoya
12.October - Club Quattro Osaka
13.October - Club Quattro Tokyo
14.October - Club Quattro Tokyo
And two Brazilian concerts
26.October - Rio De Janiero Free Jazz Festival
27.October - Sao Paolo Free Jazz Festival =20
Any tapers going please contact me, I have lots to trade from previous
tours (http://flevrier.free.fr/boots.html)
Peace to you all,
Fran=E7ois
From: "Gary Davis" <gdavis@loop.com>
Subject: More on the new Virus
Reply-to: gdavis@loop.com
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 06:49:24 -0700
Sorry to waste more digest space on this, but it seems important.
Remember, you can be infected by this virus *without* clicking on, or even
seeing, an attachment. Scroll down to the ***** for immediate
recommendations.
--Gary
SYMANTEC PROVIDES COMPREHENSIVE PROTECTION AGAINST
W32.NIMDA.A@MM
New Analysis of Computer Worm Indicates Additional Destructive Payload
CUPERTINO, Calif. Sept. 19, 2001 Symantec Corp. (Nasdaq: SYMC), a
world leader in Internet security, today announced that new analysis of
W32.Nimda.A@mm reveals that the worm contains an additional
destructive payload that will not only require detection, but removal. The
new analysis indicates that the worm is a file infector, infects .exe files
resides in memory.
W32.Nimda.A@mm is a mass-mailing worm that utilizes multiple methods
to spread itself. The worm sends itself out by e-mail, infects machines
over the network, and infects unpatched or already vulnerable Microsoft IIS
Web servers. The worm also has various side effects, such as increasing
network traffic while searching for machines to infect, which may cause
network bandwidth problems. W32.Nimda.A@mm will also attempt to
create security holes by creating a guest account with administrator
privileges and create open shares on the infected system.
Symantec currently provides an integrated detection and repair solution
against W32.Nimda.A@mm. In one step, users can download a solution
that will simultaneously detect the worm and repair damaged files. The new
definitions are available through Symantec¹s LiveUpdate feature or from the
Symantec Web site
www.securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/download.html. Symantec
is developing a separate removal tool to eradicate the worm from the PC
memory.
"Using blended Internet security threats the combination of viruses,
exploits, or vulnerabilities to attack businesses and destroy assets,
continue to rise," said Vincent Weafer, senior director of Symantec
Security Response. "To combat such a fast spreading threat, Symantec
integrated its solution for W32.Nimda.A@mm to detect and repair, allowing
for quick clean up with little downtime."
Symantec Security Response recommends that IT administrators
implement the following to stop the propagation of W32.Nimda.A@mm:
… Block e-mails containing a "readme.exe" attachment.
… Update virus definitions and ensure that firewalls are correctly
configured.
… Download the latest security updates for Enterprise Security Manager
and NetRecon.
… Install the IIS Unicode Transversal security patch.
… Install the malformed MIME header execution security patch.
… Close network share drives.
****** Additionally, consumers can immediately protect themselves against
the new worm by implementing the following: ******
… Use Symantec¹s LiveUpdate feature to obtain the latest virus definitions.
… Use the Windows Update feature located on the "Start" menu on
Window 95 and higher systems to download new security patches. …
Disable the "File Download" feature in Internet Explorer to prevent
compromise.
Both consumers and enterprises can be infected through a variety of
methods.
… E-mail One of the methods the worm uses to infect PCs though is e-
mail. The e-mail arrives with an attachment readme.exe that is not always
visible and contains a randomly generated subject line and no body
message. The worm uses its own SMTP engine to e-mail itself out to all
the addresses it collects by searching the user¹s incoming and outgoing e-
mail boxes. Internet Explorer users v5.01 or v5.5 - (IE 5 with the Service
Pak 2 or later installed or IE 6 are not affected) will receive a blank e-mail
no subject line, no body and a hidden attachment. Just opening the e-mail
can infect users¹ PCs. For the latest Microsoft security patch, visit
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/download/critical/q290108/default.asp
… Shared Drives PC users with shared drives enabled are also at risk.
The worm searches for open network shares and will attempt to copy itself
to these systems and then execute. IT administrators should close all
network shared drives.
… Web sites When users visit a compromised Web site, the server will
run a script attempting to download an Outlook file, which contains the
W32.Nimda.A@mm worm. The worm will create an open network share
on the infected machine allowing access to the system.
W32.Nimda.A@mm specifically targets versions of IIS servers, taking
advantage of the known Universal Web Traversal exploit (MS Security
Bulletin MS00-078), which is similar to the exploit used in the Code Red
attack. Compromised servers will display a Web page and attempt to
download an Outlook file that contains the worm as an attachment. IT
Administrators should download the Microsoft security patch for IIS 4.0 at
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/Release.asp?ReleaseID=32061
and for IIS v5.0 at
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/Release.asp?ReleaseID=32011
Symantec provides additional protection against W32.Nimda.A@mm
through the following solutions:
… Enterprise Security Manager ‹Symantec's policy compliance and
vulnerability management system, helps manage security patch update
functions. New patch templates are available that detect the underlying
vulnerability on Windows NT 4.0 and Windows 2000 servers.
… NetProwler Symantec's network-based intrusion detection tool, with
Security Update 8 installed, is capable of detecting attempts to attack IIS
4.0 and 5.0 servers through this vulnerability.
… NetRecon Symantec¹s network vulnerability assessment tool will be
updated to detect if this vulnerability exists on a system and if so will
provide recommendations on how to fix it.
… Symantec Enterprise Firewall (Raptor Firewall) Symantec's application
inspection firewall, by default, blocks suspect outbound data traffic from
web servers, like IIS, when operating on the firewall's service network,
thereby stopping the propagation of this, as well as other types of attacks.
… Symantec Security Check This service,
www.symantec.com/securitycheck, has been updated to scan if a system
is vulnerable to this exploit.
… Norton Internet Security Symantec¹s integrated security and privacy
suite for consumers can be updated to ensure only trusted programs
access the Internet.
For detailed information about this threat, visit Symantec¹s Web site at
www.symantec.com.
Symantec Security Response Symantec Security Response provides
thorough analysis of each component of the Internet security threat and
how the threats work together, while at the same time providing
recommendations on how to best protect against them.
Symantec Security Response: Research Centers Through a global network
of researchers and technicians working around the clock, Symantec
Security Response acts immediately, alerting customers, creating and
distributing fixes to the latest security threats and vulnerabilities and
providing global technical and emergency support on site or on the phone.
###
From: Keith Forman <kfor5311@postoffice.uri.edu>
Subject: ISO Grateful Dead 6/24 and 6/25/70
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:10:59 -0400
Hey Ya'll,
The subject pretty much says it all. I've been looking for these
shows for quite some time now and for some reason forgot about this
valuable "groveling"(sorry) resource. If you have either of these shows
please take a look at my list...linked below...and let me know if you'd be
interested in trading. I would offer up a B+P of Oysterhead at Toad's
Place...but..................we know how that story goes. There will be
some surprises to the person or persons who can find these shows for me. Later.
Keith in Rhode Island
___________________________________________
"Some folks would be happy just to have ONE dream come true"--Hunter/Garcia
===============================
<<<My CD-List>>>
http://phishhook.yi.org/lists/Kfor5311 or
http://www.phishhook.com/lists/Kfor5311
<<My Home-Page>>
http://thecolonel.homestead.com/index.html
___________________________________________
From: Jay Lyons <jayl@southeast.net>
Subject: questions on m/s vs. stereo recording
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:59:03 -0400
Hi,
I'm looking for some feedback or a good web page pertaining to M/S
(mid-side) recording information. I have two basic questions on this but
each will have several more questions stemming from it.
One situation involves recording a live musician in a very small club-seats
maybe 50-60 folks but sounds very, very nice.
In this situation the musician has asked me back after hearing my rig, to
record him live again, only this time to record as a matrix. One channel
into the SBD and the other using the mic (see equipment below).
The second situation involves a recorded show/product and how to treat it
during a dat > cd-r transfer.
I inadvertently recorded in m/s (meant to record in stereo) and now would
like to 'translate' back to a typical stereo image. I realize that m/s
records with the left ch. about -3.01 lower but I was hoping for a bit more
info than that.
If anyone is interested in a extended conversation on this topic or can
point me to a good site I'd really appreciate it. Off list would be fine.
The equipment involved is a Shure VP-88 which is a single point stereo
condenser mic. It has 3-settings for the stereo spread going from L-M-H
spread (mostly frontal, adding more side, adding very much side) and also a
m/s setting. Into a InBox and then a D8.
TIA,
Jay
Later,
Jay
From: "Alan Goldenberg" <airtaxi@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: 24-bit recording does NOT provide greater resolution
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:04:38 -0500
I'm sorry Gary, but your personal opinion notwithstanding, bit depth does,
by definition, DETERMINE resolution. I suggest you acquaint yourself Ken
Pohlman's discussion of Quantization (Principles of Digitial Audio 3rd
edition pp 33-39) or any of the other fine textbooks that deal with the
subject. Reducing the quantization error is what resolution is all about.
Some information you find enlightening:
Sampling rate refers to the frequency or number of samples taken per unit
time, i.e., the rate at which signals are sampled for subsequent use; ie
quantization. A unit that samples at 96KHz is taking more than twice as many
samples in the same time period as a unit sampling at 44.1 KHz. The 44.1kHz
sampling rate is the lowest sampling rate (and at the time, lower meant more
easily easily achievable, hence cheapest for the consumer) that will allow
for a 20Hz to 20kHz bandwidth. Every sound vibration has a negative and a
positive aspect of its cycle, so two samples per vibration is the minimum
resolution required to define the signal without loss. A sampling rate
slightly higher than twice the highest frequency (2 x 20kHz) intended for
playback was necessary to prevent a phenomenon called "aliasing," by
creating a "buffer area" for frequencies higher than 20kHz to roll-off into.
Now, back to our living rooms. I can hear 10kHz, but truthfully, I think I
only sense 16k and above. I can feel it, and I know it's in the room, but I
cannot identify pitch. Consider this—two samples for a 20kHz waveform is not
very much. Low resolution, at best. That means for a 10kHz waveform (a
rather active harmonic) at 44.1kHz sampling rate, there are roughly four
samples per wave cycle, and a 1 kHz waveform will have been sampled 40
times. This is where things get interesting
Now, 1kHz to 5kHz is the frequency range that our ears are most sensitive
to. This is the listening area considered upper midrange, where the higher
frequency fundamentals are happening. This area of fundamentals in
particular, with their resolution doubled by a 96kHz sampling rate and a
24-bit depth, plus the area of audible harmonics with their resolution
doubled, I contend is the greater benefit of using the higher sampling rate.
Every frequency, and mainly the audible fundamentals and harmonics, have
improved sound quality due to twice the sampling resolution. In my opinion,
the increased resolution creates a more lifelike presentation of the
soundstage, better definition and separation and better presentation of room
ambiance and harmonics. In short, a better recreation of the live event.
But take your head out of digital theory, textbooks, Ken Pohlman's bible,
and listen to the music and be honest about what you hear. I suggest you
take the time to listen to a reference system in a listening environment
capable of presenting 96/24 properly. The difference is not only audible,
but recreates a live performance as well as can be imagined. Whether you
think this difference justifies investing in the technology is another
matter. My subjective opinion is that 44/16 pales by comparison in this
same environment, and if you take the time, I know you will agree. However,
(and this is not a minor point) unless you are going to invest in a
reference system and your listening room, the benefits that CAN BE obtained
from 96/24 may appear like the emperor's clothes, and perhaps this has been
the issue all along.
From: "Ty Voyles" <tzvoyles@hotmail.com>
Subject: SBM1 breakout power cable
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:10:37 -0500
Does anyone have an extra power cable to power an SBM-1 from an Ecocharge
Sigma Plus system? (4pin XLR -> Sony 6v)
Thanks,
Ty
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