DAT-heads Digest #58

Contents:

[digiphil] FS: TASCAM CDRW5000 (Schwigiddy) security upgrades? (randy@monkeybiz.Stanford.EDU) Battery-Powered Mixers ("Jayney Wallick") Re stealthing . . . ("Stanley W. Smith") the word 8-10-01 FW: Battery-Powered Mixers Part 2 ("Jayney Wallick") ISO: Denecke AD20 (Zefiro InBox) or SONY SBM-1 ("Andy Liu") security/metal detectors (JHParkin@aol.com) Audio Warning on "Tribute to Heros" concert ("Gary Davis")
From: Schwigiddy <gear4sale4u@yahoo.com> Subject: [digiphil] FS: TASCAM CDRW5000 Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 18:35:02 -0700 (PDT) thats right folks, TASCAM CDRW5000 mint condition no scratches, dings, dents, etc.... in perfect work condition has allways been babied asking 400$ -> OBO <- all serious inquires accepted would possibly trade for a lower cost pair of mics, like AKG c3000's or RODE NT2's, with shockmounts. great for mastering DATs to CD, every kind of in.out you need, some that you don't....thanx for your time. Rick. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ======================== Yahoo! Groups Sponsor =====================~==> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/47cccB/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/bDIolB/TM =====================================================================~=> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: digiphil-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
From: randy@monkeybiz.Stanford.EDU Subject: security upgrades? Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 12:16:35 -0700 (PDT) how big a deal will the changes to security be? in my experience taping 10 shows since 9/11/01, i've seen absolutely no change in security policy at any of the six venues involved. At the taper friendly shows (two of the 10), they didn't even bother to search my bag. I'm certain that other folks will have other experiences...i guess it comes down to paranoia on the part of the folks running the venues...maybe the clubs out here on the left coast are less worried about terroristas targeting them for kingdom come.
From: "Jayney Wallick" <JayneyW@mackie.com> Subject: Battery-Powered Mixers Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 12:23:06 -0700 Hello Everyone, I posted a request for battery-powered mixer feedback a while back and have gotten a lot of replies to date. Below you'll find my original post, and all the responses to it. So far, it looks like there is definitely a need for a mixer like the one I describe. Thanks to everyone who replied. Hi There, I just joined this list, and wanted to pose a question. I was just wondering if anyone other than I have thought of the idea of recording both ambient house sound and line input simultaneously (i.e. recording with a mixer that has both the mike and a line input from the sound board going out to the recorder). I've been doing this for a short time with "mixed" results :). My questions are, would anyone out there have any use for a mixer with four inputs (two inputs for either one stereo mike, or two shotguns, and two for line inputs from the sound board) and two outputs (to go to the recorder)? If so, would you/have you actually buy/bought one? If you use one, what make and model do you use? I'm trying to get a feel for how many of us would actually purchase such a thing so I can try to coerce the audio company I work for into building one. They may go for it, but not if no one would buy it. Please feel free to e-mail me privately so as to risk "cluttering up" the list. Thanks very much. Jayney Wallick Technical Documentation Specialist Mackie Designs, Inc. E-mail: jayneyw@mackie.com Phone: (425) 402-6129 Fax: (425) 806-6312 The replies I received are as follows: * i think lotsa people would use it post the results to the list * there are some people that do this, but the main problem is the time delay between the conducted signal <soundboard> and the sound coming from the main room speakers which has a slight delay due to propogation through the air. what would _really_ be useful in this situation is an ac or DC powered mixer with one stereo pair having a feed for a short, high quality digital delay. this would fix all of the problems trying to record a matrix at larger shows. just a suggestion... :] * Hi, and excuse me for my english, Well I use one of those, PSC m4mk2, this have phantom power, line, mic inputs, 3 stereo outputs(2 selectables line or mic and unbalanced mic out(1/8")), limiter in stereo or linked, oscillator, night light, two bass cut (80, 140), input att., pannings, two 12 volt out, to feed 2 devices with the internal power(alkalines or np1 rechargeable), monitor with m/s decoder, you can to listen only L, only R, both, stereo, mono, tape return. hope this helps you. Here is http://www.professionalsound.com/catalog/m4mkii.html Hi Jayney, I think could be interested =20 http://www.marenius.se/mm4220.htm http://www.coopersound.com/product.htm http://www.wendtinc.net/x4specs.htm http://www.sounddevices.com/products/442master.htm http://www.posthorn.com/Aeta_2.html http://www.professionalsound.com/catalog/m4mkii.html http://www.rolls.com/new/mx442.html http://www.audio.co.uk/AD261/261page.htm http://www.ebpromotion.ch/mystere.html http://www.filmtech.co.uk/lsp4.html http://www.sqn.co.uk/4Sespec.html These are the most popular portables mixers today in the market. * This has been hashed and discussed and the only way they would buy enough of a mixer like this to make it financially feasible for Greg and the stockholders is if- A-it had a delay to time align the board feed and the live feed. B-ran for years on 2 AA batteries and heated a small home as well C-was small enough to hide in crotch with DAT deck, tapes and 2 Neumann TLM170's, cables and headphones D-had enough 48v phantom to power 4 Neumann TLM170 (unlike most Mackies) E-had frequency response from DC to UHF channel 43 F-had fully parametric EQ. Not that anyone would use it, of course... G-cost US$2.99 It will never fly..... Thanks! * What you're suggesting is commonly called a "matrix mix" tape - several variations exist, depending mainly on differences in where the mics are placed (onstage, in the house, etc.). The real key to making this form of recording work lies in correcting for the difference in arrival times between the SBD and AUD signals. Add in a delay line to the output of the SBD, correct for the time difference that your mic position indicates, (rule of thumb; 1'0" =3D 1ms delay), and then mix according to taste. I usually end up w/ 70% SBD & 30% mic signal in the final output to the stereo mix, BTW. ;) Currently I utilize either the 1604 VLZ, or a recently purchased Behringer 602, in combination w/ various mics, preamps, and decks to do these types of recordings. A smaller mixer, with some specific features tailored to the field recordist would be a welcome addition. Take a look at the Cooper stuff, or Sound Devices for some ideas as to what's already available. Here's a list of features I think should be included in any such product: Operation on external batteries is required. A 4 pin XLR jack that'll interface with the commonly available systems will do nicely, the choice of 6v. or 12v. supplies depends on how power hungry the device is, and whether or not it's also supplying phantom power to the mics. (Most of the serious tapers already own some sort of mic pre/power supply, BTW...) Combination XLR/1/4" TRS input and output jacks are a must, as well as a set of RCA ins and outs on the line level side. (There's a great variation in the output of FOH consoles.) Dedicated inserts for the delay line on the SBD channels would also be a help. Adequate monitoring, including the ability to solo all inputs and outputs is required. The addition of a high quality A>D converter and a co-axial SPDIF out would be a major bonus. Not much need for EQ, other than high-pass/bass rolloff to eliminate rumbles, airconditioning/wind noises etc. Think corrective, rather than sweetening and you're on the right track. Ergonomics & layout: The smaller and lighter the unit can be, the better. Does it fit into the commonly available PortaBrace or Sonicase systems? (All the ins & outs should locate on the sides of the unit, _NOTHING_ on the back/bottom, controls and headphone out on the front/top please. ;) ) Also, being able to "lock" the controls to prevent accidental level changes would be well recieved. Waterproof? Did I mention reasonable pricing? ;) (Yeah, I know, 'good luck' w/ that... ;) ) That'll sell more of 'em. I've wanted a 2 channel portable mic-pre/phantom supply box (utilizing the Mackie preamps from the original 1604) for years! Never could justify slicing out two of the still working mic pres and building a project box for them, however. ;) >Okay,the delay is critical , even for distances as short as 10-15 feet (10-14ms...). That's audible, maybe not as a delay >or early reverb sound, (it's not a long enough time shift to be percieved as that) but the average sound geek can hear a > muddiness or lengthening of the note - aka: time-smear. It's a subtle coloration, more like comb filtering in affect >Makes sense - onstage, or near-stage micing is a bit 'drier' - less of the room and less of the crowd is able to get to the >mic because of where it's placed... The other consideration is documentary... I'm attempting to get the interaction >between the band and the crowd on the tape, as well as just the perfomance ( I do a lot of work w/ the 'jam-band' >scene, go figure... ;) ) and that's usually the point of balance where enough of the crowd and room sound adds the >missing elements back to the sterile SBD feed... >I'm figuring that a tapers job is to capture what happened in a form that allows later listeners to reexperience the event, >and the matrix tape is clearly better at that than either SBD or AUD alone. SBD tapes are usually drum and vocal >heavy, and guitars and electrified instrument light (the nature of what has to be reinforced in a room for a good 'mix' >dictates what has to be in, and out, of the mix...), AUD tapes tend to be 'noisy', with either too much of the audience >or too much of the room reflections and secondary reflected signals in them (onstage mics, directional mics, and careful >placement will all alleviate this problem...) > Currently I utilize either the 1604 VLZ, Yea! >Great little board, but too much board for smaller club gigs... and your 12 or 8 channel models either don't monitor >well, or have those lousy rotary pots for control... No offense intended, but stuff either works well in the field, or it >doesn't... > or a recently purchased Behringer 602, Boo, hiss! :-) > see above, works well, detented rotary pots (that don't drift away from the settings w/o real effort...), excellent >monitoring through the phones, channel inserts, etc... I've looked at Sound Devices. Do you have a URL for Cooper? >www.coopersound.com . . . the CS-104 is where you should head towards... designed for field recording >(Film sound or ENG), recessed switches, full battery op (internal and external), the Cadillac of portable mixers... > looks remarkably similar to one of the old Tapco prototypes, BTW... ;) If you dropped the slate functions, > camera links, and the external linking for interconnection between other units it'd be an ideal audio thing... > Here's a list of features I think should be included in any such > product: >Note how closely my list matches how the Cooper is laid out... ;) * Yup; it worked!! Welcome to DAT Heads. Your products rule my world. Rude Solo Light. Yeah I think I'd buy one!! But as others Im sure are going to tell you; it=20 needs to have an option to be battery operated. That way it could be used in=20 the field. And of course; its gotta be portable/Small!!! * hey now! i currently use a Samson Mixpad 4 and would KILL for a multi mic input. To defeat the delay in matrixing a soundboard feed with an audience feed i use it mostly when on-stage mic-ing (that's where the multi mic thang'd be nice)/ Also, having a digital delat would be cool, cause then you COULD run audience mics away from the stage and NOT get a discrepancy between the board signal arrival and the aud signal arrival * Sonosax can be found at:=20 http://www.sonosax.ch/=20 * For now, I bought a 1402 because Mackie doesn't make the mixer you describe yet. I passed on all the current DC powered mini-mixers because, well, you know. :) Give the little gem four mic pre's and a single stereo channel. Find some short sliders - short ones are still better than bitsy knobs. Give it a built-in DC-CD power supply so it can run from 6 or 12 vdc and still power 45v mics and do +20 out with headroom. Recessed controls would be nice - maybe integrated with a case design that is self-covering. I know this project has been tossed around before at Mackie - there is an existing design somewhere I think. The application goes further than audience recording. The ability to do a quality location recording from a knapsack has professional potential also. Trouble is, all the existing products are geared toward broadcasting or the low end of pro sound.
From: "Stanley W. Smith" <swsmith@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re stealthing . . . Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 15:14:04 -0500 I don't do much stealthing anymore, so it's not getting into the shows I'm having trouble with... it's the thought of trying to board an airplane with lots of wires, suspicious non-transparent to x-ray boxes, and a pile of lead-acid batteries that's bothering me. It was bad enough before 9/11 but now there's gonna' be a lot more ground transportation and rental cars in my future. ;) Stan Smith
From: <stuart@startnet.com> Subject: the word 8-10-01 Reply-To: <stuart@startnet.com> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 17:00:09 -0400 I have been looking for anyone who recorded "THE WORD" in Phila. on 8-10-01. If anyone knows of this show please e-mail me, I have a very eclectic list to trade from. The best address to e-mail me at is: livetaper@hotmail.com PEACE & BLESSINGS, STUART
From: "Jayney Wallick" <JayneyW@mackie.com> Subject: FW: Battery-Powered Mixers Part 2 Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:35:54 -0700 > Hi Folks, >=20 > Here are more responses to my original post. >=20 > * I bought a Soundcraft Folio Notepad for the purpose of doing > on-the-spot > mixes, generally with my pair of DPA 4021s as the ambiant mics or > on-stage > mics, and a board patch for vocals/etc. I expect at some point I'll > also > be mixing in a direct patch from a bass guitar amp, and/or my DPA 4061 > omnis along with the rest. (In certain situations where those would > be > useful additions.) Only having 4 inputs would limit things somewhat, > as > I'd expect 2 channels for room mics, at least one channel for a board > patch, leaving only one channel remaining for a bass guitar patch or > another room mic or another channel from the board. On the other > hand, if > you could compact everything into a unit that wouldn't require live > power, > the tradeoff would be well worth it for some situations where it's > difficult to get access to power in the spot you need to set up your > mixer. > Hope the input helps! > > I was researching the Folio Notepad and it seems like a nice compact > > mixer, but since it doesn't have DC power, I thought it really would > > only work in limited situations. What has your experience been with > it? > I've used it for several local gigs, where the bands and the venues > had no > problem with my running wires and providing me with AC power. I'm not > sure how easy it'll be to get things set up for a national act in a > "real" > venue, but I'm hoping that between bringing tons of cables including > an > extension cord, and getting there early enough to set things up and be > out > of the way by the time the audience starts trickling in, I'll be > permitted > to use the thing. As I mentioned in the last email, not needing AC > would > be helpful, as it would give more freedom in where the mixer needs to > be > set up and thus where wires need to be run to, so a more truly > portable > unit would be neat. >=20 > * I have been doing the same thing as of late because I record in > small clubs > where not all instruments go through the board. Right now the main > club I > do this in has a mono board so I have been using the board as one > channel > and the mic as the other. I have been using my Roland UA-30 to do > this into > a laptop via USB. This is a good idea, but there would need to be > some kind > of delay built into the board side because there is a difference in > the time > it takes the sound to get to the mixer from the board and the mics. > The > best option would be to have a 4 channel sound card that can do 24/96 > or > 16/44.1 simultaneous recording. This way the wav file can be edited > post > recording to sync up the two different sound sources. It is a good > idea > though. >=20 > * I read your post on dat-heads regarding a 4 in 2 out mixer for > combining > sbrd and aud feeds in to what we call a matrix recording. I for one > would be very interested in buying one but I would like to see several > features: > -portable power option, 6 or 12 volts to go with the ecocharge > and > similar systems many of us use > -very clean, S/N and distortions in the range of the Grace > Designs > Lunatec V2 preamp and Benchmark AD@K+ a/d converter many of us use > -built in delay for the mic inputs with macro and micro > adjustments as > on the V2. I find the adjustments on the Sound Designs MP2(?) preamp > a > huge pain to use. I don't know if you realize this but the soundboard > feed travels back to the board at nearly the speed of light while the > sound waves reaching the mics posted at the board travel at the speed > of > sound. The formula for the difference is non linear but can be > approximated at I think 1 ms per foot back from the stage within 30 > feet > and .8 ms per foot after that. We usually just use headphones and > manually adjust the delay until that crystal clarity sounds. > Otherwise > with sbrd and aud feeds arriving at slightly different times there is > phase cancelation which muddies the sound. > -easily cleanable(removable?) input level controls or built in > such a > way that dirt and dust cannot get into the contacts. Many mixers get > so > noisy at this point after awhile and the environments many of us > record > in are extremely dirty and dusty. > -locking control switches, or otherwise built to prevent > accidental > moving > -small, compact, bomb proof(no reference to this weeks events, > that is > just how the Lunatec V2 is described and I believe it.) > I'm afraid I have just described a very expensive machine with a very > limited market. I'm sure after awhile I can come up with other > desirable features but this could be something to shoot for. =20 >=20 > * I have done this it is commonly called a "matrix" recording, I > believe a 4 chanel mixer to be too small I use the Mackie 1202 or even > 1402. The added channels let me mix in a sub group or individual > channel from the foh sbd that may not be being reinforced enough for > me ie. a guitar in a small club or boosting the drum mix for tape. I > like the 1202 best but more mono mic/line inputs and less stereo, I > think you get 4 mono inputs on a 12 chanel board? how about 6/6 or > even better 8/4. also It would be nice to power the 1202 off of a 12v > Dc supply . >=20 > * I'd be surprised if there was enough demand for Mackie to build > and sell > this mixer. What is the chance of someone like you or me building a > couple for ourselves with some design assistance, in whatever form, > from > Mackie? >=20 > * Hey, I use the Mackie 1202 for a board mic mix. Sometimes they > come out great, sometimes not. I've got the one from a couple years > ago that doesn't have the button to toggle the channel. The newer one > would be nice to have. Some of the best tapes I've ever made have > been these mixes, especially with mics on stage. When I can't get > them on stage, it would be nice to have something built in to the > mixer to set the delay. I'm not sure if that's even possible.=20 >=20 > * I'd buy one if it had a digital delay.Preamps for two channells > would be > desirable only if they were of high quality.Otherwise I would have to > say > that It's a good idea to cut down on the cost by not having > preamps.Many > people who would buy this piece already have an outboard preamp that > is of > better quality than what could feasibly be inlcuded.One comment I'd > like to > make is that a four track recorder would be a good thing to develope > so one > wouldn't have to do the mix to two tracks in the field. >=20 > * I am actually looking into buying a Samson mixpad four. I would > definitely=20 > like some other options. So far Samson is the only mixer I have seem > that=20 > tapers use at shows. >=20 > * I would be interested in a mixer like this. It's possible to do > this with a DAP1 but tricky. Sounds like a great idea. I'm actually > surprised no one has done it yet. >=20 > * Yes, I'd be in favor of such a mixer. I can see many many > different uses: > 2 omnis w/ 2 cards (or hypers) > 2 mics w/ 2 sbd inputs > 3 mics, using the 3rd as a blend (aka the old nakamichi mixer) > plus more that I haven't thought of as of yet. > It should be rather portable and battery driven and also delivery > phantom > power. It should also include a headphone out for monitoring and gain > adjusts on all the inputs. > good luck with this endeavor and note that I remain very happy with my > Mackie 12/2 mixer that I have had many years now. I'm sure that if you > develop it, it will be top notch. >=20 > * A 4 Channel mixer from Mackie would be great. Right now I borrow > a friends > Mackie 1202 or sometimes 1402 to mix a stereo pair of mics with a > stereo > sound board feed. I have been thinking about purchasing a 4 channel > Berringer (sp?) for this purpose but I am not sure of the quality of > this > unit - I would much rather have a Mackie 4 channel. The features I > would > look for would be having the VLZ mic pre's, good loud headphone out to > monitor with, possibly the option of sending just the sbd and the sbd > aud > mix to different outputs which can be done on the bigger mixers, > having a > way to battery power the unit would be a huge benefit also. Let us > know what > you guys decide to do. >=20 > * I don't know what kind of information you are looking for, so > this reply may be of no use. However, I have had the pleasure of > working with Mackie boards and wanted to reply.=20 > I'm no dathead.....but I sometimes find usefull info on this website. > I am a producer of audio commercials, narrations, etc, mostly for > retail radio station use. But I also play in a band and have done a > considerable amount of "live" recording. When doing live shows, I > ALWAYS use a snake splitter from the monitor mix sidestage, and run it > into my 2404. (I think that's the model number). I then take the > direct outs on each channel used for recording a particular instrument > and run it into an Alesis studio 12R sub mixer, (2 of them) for ease > in patching into my ADATS. Also I ALWAYS use two ambient mics for the > room to capture the stereo image...without them, the recording will > sound very "sterile".=20 > For datheads, I'm sure this is not possible, since they would not have > access to direct feeds from the stage, an area to set up a console and > ADATS, etc. At any rate, my Mackie has been the quietest, easy to > use, and trouble-free board I have ever had. Highly recommended for > ANY application.=20 >=20 > * Hey, Just wanted to give you my input to your questions/ideas. > I have done limited work such as you described, using a stereo pair > from the board and 2 mics usually in an NOS pattern. My mixer of > choice is the Samson Mixpad 4, its small, can be battery powered, and > has 4 inputs which seen to work ok for me ( 2 mic, 2 aux returns). > Something similar would be excellent although smaller is better, > perhaps with better mic pre's, battery power a must, a level meter on > the mixer itself would be a big help. A digital version would be > nice, though I'm not sure if it would replace the great DA converters > that are on the market right now. As for more technical issues, I > can't be of much help, but as for convenience of use, these are my > ideas, just a simple basic high quality mixer. I know the Samson is > pretty inexpensive, but if something of higher quality were to come > along, I would highly consider it.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20
From: "Andy Liu" <dwonk@hotmail.com> Subject: ISO: Denecke AD20 (Zefiro InBox) or SONY SBM-1 Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:51:37 -0700 Anybody got one they no longer need or love? Mods with SONY 7-pin out a plus! ANDY BWT: 3cd B&P (need at least 2 80min) 9-21-01 King Cat Theater Seattle, WA (great sounding venue!) Garaj Mahal, Onstage Schoeps mk4>Lunatec V2>AD2K+>DAP1>M1>AP2496>SF 48/44.1(4)>CDR Karl Denson's Tiny Universe, First row center balcony Nakamichi CM300/CP1>Denecke AD20/44.1>M1>AP2496>SF>CDR (exceptional recording from these mics) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
From: JHParkin@aol.com Subject: security/metal detectors Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 17:51:56 EDT I went to Weezer Saturday night in Detroit and they had metal detectors. I had my M1(along with mics) down my pants near my belt buckle. I watched the door for a few minutes and the decided to go for it, and luckily the people in front of me were causing a bit of a problem so the security guard was a bit distracted. The wand went off, as I thought I might. But he was paying more attention to the other people than me and didn't say a thing as I kept on walking. It also helped looking like clean cut all american guy as oppossed to the other people there who mostly has many tatoos and multiple piercings(not that there is anything wrong with that). The only other time I was searched this year was in Sunrise, FL for the u2 opener. It was my first time taping so I decided to go with an alternate plan if they were searching. I brough with me a bottle of Pepto Bismol and presented it to the security gaurd saying I wasn't feeling too well due to the sea food I ate earlier in the day(I was lying). He called over his supervisor and he looked at me and asked me if I had the "runs" I said yes. He said ok I could bring it in. The security gaurd who was then suppossed to check me looked at me and said go on in. I take it he really wasn't interested in frisking me at that point. Funny story. Jeff
From: "Gary Davis" <gdavis@loop.com> Subject: Audio Warning on "Tribute to Heros" concert Reply-to: gdavis@loop.com Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:58:31 -0700 If you made a video tape of last Friday's concert, be advised that the audio channels on the NY and LA segments are most likely reversed! (London was correct). This is very easy to see on the Eddie Vedder/Neil Young segment. The song opens with Neil playing organ solo. On the screen, you'll see Neil on the left, but the sound comes out of the right speaker. When the off-screen second guitarist comes in, you'll hear him on the left speaker, but in the occasional wide shot, you can see he's physically to the right of Eddie (from the audience's point of view). It's also quite obvious on the Bon Jovi segment. Richie Sambora (guitarist) is seen on the left, and a violinist on the right, but the stereo sound is the opposite of that. The solution? If you're just watching the tape, temporarilly reverse the left and right RCA cables on the output of your VCR (or the input of the stereo). Don't forget to switch them back afterwards! If you make a copy of the tape, switch the left and right wires between the "play" deck and the "record" deck. Label all original tapes "Channels Reversed" and label copies "Channels Corrected." This does not apply to audio-only tapes. --Gary
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