DAT-heads Digest #62, Volume #6 Wed, 26 Sep 01 22:50:01 EDT Contents: security in U.S ("Hirosi Yosizawa") ISO Zefiro InBox/Denecke AD-20 ("T M") Re: My bit on 24 bits ("Wayne D. Hoxsie Jr.") Re: My Bit on 24 bits ("Wayne D. Hoxsie Jr.") weezer 09.26.01 Y100 Broadcast ("slowdivingblue .") Re: airport xray machines ("John F. Whitehead") Anyone else get Cutthroats 9, Ex Girl, Melt Banana, Shellac on ("geoff nicholson") ISO: Logic Wetlands 9/10/01 (Geoff Lynch) FS: Audio Magic Excalibur II RCA Cables (Geoff Lynch) anyone want to edit - tribute to heros? ("Gary Davis") Cowboy Junkies taping policy? ("Winnie Olmer") GD 2-24-74 CDR up for grabs ("Kevin Hatton") ideas on CDR storage ("Kevin Hatton") CHICAGO tapers / Garbage in-store performance Oct 2nd (Bill Shaw) RE: My bit on 24 bits ("Javi Dieguez") decks/mics thru metal detectors (JBurneyko@aol.com) Susan Tedeschi DAT for B&P (Dave M) DAT > PC > DAT ("Ashevillain") ISO: Radiohead dats from last tour ("Steve Bartz") Re: My Bit on 24 bits (Gordon Gidluck) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hirosi Yosizawa" Subject: security in U.S Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 00:36:33 +0900 Is it easy to bring DAT in to the concert hall in U.S recently? Is security severe? Does a metallic detector exist? Hirosi ------------------------------ From: "T M" Subject: ISO Zefiro InBox/Denecke AD-20 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 10:51:19 -0500 I'm interested in purchasing a used Zefiro Inbox if you have one available please contact me. Thanks Tim M. ------------------------------ From: "Wayne D. Hoxsie Jr." Subject: Re: My bit on 24 bits Reply-To: Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:02:25 -0500 (CDT) On Wed, 26 Sep 2001, Gordon Gidluck wrote: > Dan, [RE: Samplitude's *2 and /2] > I checked in the Samplitude help and this is different from what we are > thinking. > The (*2) inserts an interpolated sample in-between two individual > samples. This results in a drop in pitch. So this is a way to increase > the number of samples, not to increase the loudness. > > [RE: Javi's comment] > Javi, I think makes a very good point here that a recording might fare > well when applying a straight factor of two to the samples. If you can't > locate software to do this I can set something up for you. (I can setup > Wavscript to do an optional bit-shift in the output file.) You also > might want to check out SOX to see what normalization options it has. > > Gordon I did some SOX tests. The "-v" option is a straight linear multiplication and I tested this on a low-level wave file (intro crowd noise from a dead show) with: sagan:/tmp/fp7/1988-09-16/1# sox -v 2.0 gd_88-09-16_d1t01.wav test.wav sagan:/tmp/fp7/1988-09-16/1# sox -v 0.5 test.wav test1.wav sagan:/tmp/fp7/1988-09-16/1# cmp -l test1.wav gd_88-09-16_d1t01.wav (no output from 'cmp' means no differences) Sox also has a "vol" effect that lets you use "amplitude" "power" or "dB" options. This is a bit more tricky. I tried it with the "amplitude" setting and it is identical to the -v option: sagan:/tmp/fp7/1988-09-16/1# sox gd_88-09-16_d1t01.wav test.wav vol 2.0 amplitude sagan:/tmp/fp7/1988-09-16/1# sox test.wav test1.wav vol 0.5 amplitude sagan:/tmp/fp7/1988-09-16/1# cmp -l test1.wav gd_88-09-16_d1t01.wav (no output from 'cmp' means no differences) The "power" and "dB" options use complex floating point algorithms and the results end-up with slight differences (usually no more than 1 or 2 off from the original). The latest version of sox (12.17.1 is what I'm using) has a new "compand" effect that lets you apply a very complex compression/expansion curve to the sample. It takes a lot of trial and error to get it right, but it can be very useful with a recording where say, you have a relatively quiet performer and a bunch of loud fans near your mics (I'm thinking the recent YMSB show in St. Louis). If I'd have set my levels for the music, then the crowd noise between sets would overload my preamp. With the levels I ended up using on the pre, the music is way too low. I've been playing with different settings and having some good results, but I don't have a real good handle on what I'm doing just yet. Sox "compand" lets you build a list of dB/gain pairs and it "connects the dots" to make the compression/expansion curve. It also lets you set the integration interval to determine the absolute amplitude when applying the curve. -- Wayne D. Hoxsie Jr. wayne@hoxnet.com http://www.hoxnet.com PGP Key ID 138BCEE1 ------------------------------ From: "Wayne D. Hoxsie Jr." Subject: Re: My Bit on 24 bits Reply-To: Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:14:57 -0500 (CDT) On Wed, 26 Sep 2001, Dan Heend wrote: > > Gordon Gidluck wrote: > >>>Dan, [RE: Samplitude's *2 and /2] > I checked in the Samplitude help and this is different from what we are > thinking. > The (*2) inserts an interpolated sample in-between two individual > samples. This results in a drop in pitch. So this is a way to increase > the number of samples, not to increase the loudness. > <<< > > Whoa! No, I think you're looking at the wrong function. > I'm talking about the Amplitude * 2 and Amplitude / 2 functions in > Samplitude, > not the Sampledata *2 /2 functions. > > >>> > [RE: Javi's comment] > Javi, I think makes a very good point here that a recording might fare > well when applying a straight factor of two to the samples. If you can't > locate software to do this I can set something up for you. (I can setup > Wavscript to do an optional bit-shift in the output file.) You also > might want to check out SOX to see what normalization options it has. > <<< > > Gordon, I'm interested in your Wavscript program... Perhaps there is > something you can do... > One possibility is the bit-shift function you mentioned. That would be > cool... > Another might be integer-based normalization. If you could analyze a file, > find it's largest peak, > and add the integer difference between the largest peak and FSD to every > sample, Sox lets you do that with the "stat" effect. You just run it on the file and it gives you a printout like: sagan:/tmp/fp7/1988-09-16/1# sox gd_88-09-16_d1t01.wav -e stat Samples read: 1639344 Length (seconds): 18.586667 Scaled by: 2147483647.0 Maximum amplitude: 0.228760 Minimum amplitude: -0.205536 Mean norm: 0.017766 Mean amplitude: 0.000270 RMS amplitude: 0.025842 Maximum delta: 0.230865 Minimum delta: 0.000000 Mean delta: 0.023524 RMS delta: 0.034222 Rough frequency: 9294 Volume adjustment: 4.371 Then you can use "4" (to use an integer value in this case) as your volume adjustment value: sagan:/tmp/fp7/1988-09-16/1# sox -v 4.0 gd_88-09-16_d1t01.wav new.wav > I'd guess this would be a great way to normalize, right? > Technically speaking I'd guess you'd have to deal with signed numbers, but > you get the idea. > I wonder if that would result in truly linear normalization without the > risk of introducing error throught the process... With integer values, this is reversible, but say using 4.371 with the original, and then reapplying 0.22878059940517044154 (the reciprocal of 4.371) to the new file results in many differences (in this case, differences in 406192 of the 1639344 samples--most only differ by 1 or 2 and would not be noticed by any normal ear). > > -Dan > -- Wayne D. Hoxsie Jr. wayne@hoxnet.com http://www.hoxnet.com PGP Key ID 138BCEE1 ------------------------------ From: "slowdivingblue ." Subject: weezer 09.26.01 Y100 Broadcast Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:05:03 +0000 hi _ i've heard that y100 (100.3) in philadelphia is broadcasting this show. can someone please tape it? minidisc, dat, hard drive, i don't care as long as you can put it on CDR. would also accept a DAT clone. i have a lot of weezer & tons of other bands to swap. please let me know if you're taping this. thanks. slowdivingblue@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "John F. Whitehead" Subject: Re: airport xray machines Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 10:31:19 -0700 Sebastian Boschert wrote: > He told me that > nothing could happen since the x-ray machines do not use any kind of > magnetism (which is the only way to damage such a tape). I have heard that the risk is less the x-rays than the motors at the end of the conveyor belt which create magnetic fields. And as others have alluded, you don't know what your media is subjected to when you check your luggage. (Or when you send it in the mail.) But DAT tapes have very high coercivity, so you're more likely to have magnetic problems with analog cassettes and videotapes than with DATs. If you're curious, I found a good table on coercivity at http://www.weircliffe.co.uk/degaussi.htm#COERCIVITY%20OF%20MAGNETIC%20MEDIA - jfw ------------------------------ From: "geoff nicholson" Subject: Anyone else get Cutthroats 9, Ex Girl, Melt Banana, Shellac on Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:15:26 -0600 Hi, did anyone else catch either Cutthroats 9, Ex Girl, Melt Banana, Shellac on their recent tours(not touring together). I just taped Ex Girl last week, sounds great, and Cutthroats 9 a few weeks ago here in Chicago. Anyone?? Any non jam band tapers out there? Have tons to trade. ------------------------------ From: Geoff Lynch Subject: ISO: Logic Wetlands 9/10/01 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 13:19:33 -0600 SSIA, I really would like to hear this!!!!!!!!! Thanks, Geoff Lynch Inside Sales MacroSystem US the digital video company 5485 Conestoga Court Boulder, CO 80301 Phone: 303-801-1027 (direct) or 303-440-5311 x1027 Fax: 303-440-5322 mail to: geofflynch@casablanca.tv Web: http://www.casablanca.tv ------------------------------ From: Geoff Lynch Subject: FS: Audio Magic Excalibur II RCA Cables Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 13:22:48 -0600 Very good shape w/ locking ends, about 1/2 meter. make me an offer........... Geoff Lynch Inside Sales MacroSystem US the digital video company 5485 Conestoga Court Boulder, CO 80301 Phone: 303-801-1027 (direct) or 303-440-5311 x1027 Fax: 303-440-5322 mail to: geofflynch@casablanca.tv Web: http://www.casablanca.tv ------------------------------ From: "Gary Davis" Subject: anyone want to edit - tribute to heros? Reply-to: gdavis@loop.com Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:51:26 -0700 I have all the tracks on CDRs but it needs some editing. Anyone want to edit it? Some experience in Noise Reduction preferred. Cool Edit Pro anyone? thanks-- --Gary ------------------------------ From: "Winnie Olmer" Subject: Cowboy Junkies taping policy? Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:21:43 -0400 Anybody know if they are taper friendly. Thanks! ================================== "Imagine there's no countries, It isn't hard to do, Nothing to kill or die for, No religion too, Imagine all the people living life in peace..."-John Lennon Winnie Olmer mailto:who@sover.net ================================== ------------------------------ From: "Kevin Hatton" Subject: GD 2-24-74 CDR up for grabs Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:38:34 -0400 I'd like to offer this show up for a couple of trades and b&p. I know that this is not a difficult show to obtain but it's one of my favorites and I'm excited to trade it around. Give me a holler if interested. Kevin Hatton UK College of Medicine Email: kevin_hatton@hotmail.com Pager: 859-323-3000 ext. 4144 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Kevin Hatton" Subject: ideas on CDR storage Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:40:44 -0400 Howdy all, now that i've got a bunch of discs, i've abandonded the jewel cases and was wondering about what other people are using for mass storage. The local electronics store has albums for 200+ but am curious about other options. thanks. Kevin Hatton UK College of Medicine Email: kevin_hatton@hotmail.com Pager: 859-323-3000 ext. 4144 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: Bill Shaw Subject: CHICAGO tapers / Garbage in-store performance Oct 2nd Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:48:39 -0700 Garbage will perform 2 songs off their new album, beautifulgarbage, on it's release day, Tuesday Oct 2nd - at Tower Records on Clark Street, in Chicago. You must have a pass to get in. To receive a pass, send an email to garbage@electricartists.com with the subject: Garbage Defeat The Bulls in Chicago (please don't send email if you won't be in Chicago on Oct 2nd). If you are lucky, they will contact you about getting a pass for this exclusive in-store performance. To those in the Chicago and surrounding areas, I would keep an eye out for short notice Garbage shows. Prior to their last tour, they played a few small shows, billed as "Stupid Girl" Of course they open for U2 in Chicago about a week after the in store appearance, actually closer to 2 weeks, but anyway... there are 8 days between the Tower Records appearance and their first show on the U2 tour. I'm thinking a couple stealth shows would be likely. BWT: killer fob Nuemann tape of Garbage, 9/25/98 in San Jose. DAT or CD, your choice. Bill http://www.GarbageBase.com ------------------------------ From: "Javi Dieguez" Subject: RE: My bit on 24 bits Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 00:12:06 +0200 [I had said] > > Unfortunately, using cooledit for this task does not seem to work well. > > If I multiply by, say 400% and then by 25% I don't get the same bits > > as in the original file. What software should be used? > > <<< [and Gordon replied] > Javi, I think makes a very good point here that a recording might fare > well when applying a straight factor of two to the samples. If you can't > locate software to do this I can set something up for you. (I can setup > Wavscript to do an optional bit-shift in the output file.) You also > might want to check out SOX to see what normalization options it has. Jonathan Eldelson kindly answered me by e-mail and told me that Cooledit dither may be turned off (Settings/Data/Dither Transform Results). I've checked it and it works, even with non power of 2 gains. I tried a 500% gain and then a 20% gain and it resulted in identical bits as the original file. Regarding what Dan had said: >Also given that every *2 gives *approximiately* 6dB increase (I think it's >actually more like 6.02dB), >I can't imagine that you'd regularly need anything more than that for a >level adjustment anyway. I think that being able to multiply by any integer and not just power of twos lets you fine tune better. If you original levels were, for example a maximum sample of 10000, normalizing by power of two lets you go up to 20000 only. Multiplying by 3 puts you in 30000 of 32768 maximum. Lastly, Wayne said >With integer values, this is reversible, but say using 4.371 with the >original, and then reapplying 0.22878059940517044154 (the reciprocal >of 4.371) to the new file results in many differences (in this case, >differences in 406192 of the 1639344 samples--most only differ by 1 >or 2 and would not be noticed by any normal ear). those differs of 1 and 2 are quantization noise!! And that is what we are trying to avoid here. It causes distortion. The question that remains is, do the noise shape and dither algorithms still "sound" OK even after we've normalized the signal using any integer number? Sorry for the long post. Javi ------------------------------ From: JBurneyko@aol.com Subject: decks/mics thru metal detectors Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 19:37:35 EDT with new york city now bringing in metal detectors for a lot of venues, i was wondering how easily a metal detector picks up a D8 dat deck, standard csb/sonic studios mics, and batteries... anyone with info, please email me, or if its helpful post to the list. also, if anyone has any good methods they use to get past metal detectors, please email me and let me know.. i'd hate to see these new security measures stop me from taping shows. thanks a lot... jay jburneyko@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Dave M Subject: Susan Tedeschi DAT for B&P Reply-To: mclellan@superlink.net Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:49:00 -0700 Thanks to the generosity of Dan Greenberg, I'm offering up 2 DAT clones of Susan Tedeschi on a 60M DAT. Looking to get either SONY 60M or 90M in return. Dave ------------------------------ From: "Ashevillain" Subject: DAT > PC > DAT Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:44:46 -0400 I'm trying to clone a DAT using my computer(I'm a unidecker so direct DAT > DAT isn't possible for me). I can't seem to get a signal to my DAT deck from the digital coax out of my soundcard. I'm using a Zoltrix Nightengale. I've tried playing the .wav file through Soundforge, CD Wave and Windows Media Player all with no success. The inputs, analog and digital work just fine...just the output of the card I'm having trouble with. Anyone have an idea as to what the problem might be? A setting or piece of software that I may be missing? thanks cliff **Red Cosmic Earth** I Endure in order to Evolve Transcending Synchronicity I seal the Matrix of Navigation With the Cosmic tone of Presence I am guided by the power of Birth ------------------------------ From: "Steve Bartz" Subject: ISO: Radiohead dats from last tour Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 02:16:33 Hey Guys. I am looking for Radiohead dats from their last tour. Looking for the show from Blossom Music Center in particular, but any from the last tour would be great. Thanks-------------Guido Steve Bartz a.k.a. Guido guido9@hotmail.com 603 Patterson RD. Apt, 1 Dayton OH 45419 (937)643-0471 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: Gordon Gidluck Subject: Re: My Bit on 24 bits Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:58:36 -0500 Javi wrote: > those differs of 1 and 2 are quantization noise!! And that is what we > are trying to avoid here. It causes distortion. I have followed the SEKD newsgroup quite closely the last 3 years. One of people who uses their software (Sequoia) for mastering (I will call him Mark R) mentioned that there are those who believe that any digital processing, however minute, introduces *some* degradation into the audio. This seems plausible. I understand your concerns about introducing rounding errors into the result. One solution to this is to use integer arithmetic only, but you may not be able to linearly increase a properly recorded signal by 2x, 3x, or 4x. Javi wrote: > The question that remains is, do the noise shape and dither algorithms > still "sound" OK even after we've normalized the signal using any > integer number? (opinion) Dither is probably ok as long as you can't hear it. From my experiments with dither, it appears that you have to increase it quite a bit before you can actually hear it. It might NOT be ok to do this with a noise-shaped signal. Thanks to Wayne Hoxsie for posting the info on SOX. Dan Heend wrote: > Whoa! No, I think you're looking at the wrong function. > I'm talking about the Amplitude * 2 and Amplitude / 2 functions in > Samplitude, > not the Sampledata *2 /2 functions. I did not find that function in version 6 of their software, but you are correct. It is referred to in the help subsystem and I found it in version 5.12 which I had previously. Apparently they have reworked the normalization dialog in version 6, so some menu items deemed redundant have been phased out. You can now (say) increase by 6db, or whatever percentage. Dan writes further: > Gordon, I'm interested in your Wavscript program... Perhaps there is > something you can do... > One possibility is the bit-shift function you mentioned. That would be > cool... > Another might be integer-based normalization. If you could analyze a file, > find it's largest peak, > and add the integer difference between the largest peak and FSD to every > sample, > I'd guess this would be a great way to normalize, right? > Technically speaking I'd guess you'd have to deal with signed numbers, but > you get the idea. > I wonder if that would result in truly linear normalization without the > risk of introducing error throught the process... I hope that I am following you correctly here. To add a constant to the samples would not be linear change, all samples would have to change in proportion to be true to the dynamic range. Gordon ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** To unsubscribe from this digest, please send email to dat-heads-unsubscribe@datheads.phish.net If your email address has changed, you may (optionally) send the message to dat-heads-unsubscribe-oldaddress=olddomain@datheads.phish.net and the old address will be removed. Problems or questions about a subscription should be addressed via these avenues and then if needed to dat-heads-owner@datheads.phish.net or postmaster@datheads.phish.net never the list itself You can submit a message for inclusion in the next digest via this address: Internet: dat-heads@datheads.phish.net Archives of DAT-Heads digests and related files are available on the DAT-Heads home page: http://www.solorb.com/dat-heads/ End of DAT-Heads Digest ******************************