DAT-heads Digest #91, Volume #6 Wed, 24 Oct 01 12:50:00 EDT Contents: ISO Lloyds tour at Detroit (Greg Starks) Magnolia Music Festival tapes ("Otto, Michael") FOR SALE: SONY PCM-601ESD DIGITAL AUDIO PROCESSOR ("Jack Weston") ISO Black Crowes 10/11/01 Ypsilanti, MI (tony) U2 @ MSG (kevin baker) Any Airline Hassle Updates? (Dan Gale) Robert Walter's 20th Congress trades? (Sean Dougherty) WTB/ISO: Shure VP-88 ("Eric Bogart") Phil Lesh st Louis tickets for sale ("travitz") Security at Axis, Boston? (Stefan Cooke) new postal radiation machines (Delano) FS:Sound Devices MP2 & GP ADC-20 (CWDATHEAD@aol.com) ISO: Waterboys Atlanta ("Larry P. Milhouse") extra ABB 8/04/01 (on DAT) for B+P ("Dan Greenberg") possible DNS interruption datheads.phish.net (Liam Sean Kennedy) Chris Whitley (Chris Jones) cd special (Les Gordon) ISO: oysterhead asheville xtras (Stuart Gerber) Moisture and Mics ("Mincey, Patrick") Looking For Afro Celt Sound System Trade (Jerry Zigmont) FT: Rollins Band / Mother Superior Oct-23 Stuttgart, Germany (Sebastian Boschert) Re: Matrix & onstage mic placement - a primer ("Stanley W. Smith") ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Greg Starks Subject: ISO Lloyds tour at Detroit Reply-To: starksgr@msu.edu Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:15:43 -0400 Greetings: I was lucky enough to see the Lloyds Blues tour this summer with Tommy Castro, John Hiatt, and Buddy Guy. BB King also played, but he talked more, and I have no interest in a BB recording. Hiatt and Guy, on the other hand, destroyed Detroit. I would LOVE to have a copy of that show. Lots of old Phish and other stuff to trade, please let me know if you can help with this show or any other from this tour. Thanks! Greg Starks ------------------------------ From: "Otto, Michael" Subject: Magnolia Music Festival tapes Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:20:21 -0400 Hi I would love to get some music from the Magfest last weekend. A great weekend of music and fun. Especially the Radiators, Donna The Buffalo, and Peter Rowan sets (incl Sam Bush). Any chance someone is willing to tree these, or share them in a trade? thanks michael ___________________ Michael Otto Nielsen Media Research Dunedin Florida 727/738-3000 ext 2352 ------------------------------ From: "Jack Weston" Subject: FOR SALE: SONY PCM-601ESD DIGITAL AUDIO PROCESSOR Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:33:49 -0500 FOR SALE: SONY PCM-601ESD DIGITAL AUDIO PROCESSOR/ COPY OF OWNER'S MANUAL. FOR DETAILS VISIT THE DIGITAL MUSIC ARCHIVES WEB SITE AT: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jweston2/index.htm ------------------------------ From: tony Subject: ISO Black Crowes 10/11/01 Ypsilanti, MI Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:42:39 -0400 Hi, I'm looking for any recordings from the 10/11/01 show. I have one '01 BC master and many other recordings to offer in trade. thanks, -- -tony ------------------------------ From: kevin baker Subject: U2 @ MSG Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Will anyone taping or going to the either of the first two U2 shows at MSG please email me directly. I'm looking for some information before I head down for show number 3. thanks, Kevin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Dan Gale Subject: Any Airline Hassle Updates? Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:06:49 -0700 I'm going to be flying to some shows this weekend and am hoping some folks have some recent experiences with new airport security and what I should expect. In particular I am concerned about explaining numerous taping gizmos, tons of cables, mic stand, and a couple of eco-charge batteries. I had heard of airline hassles with the eco-charges before - is this worse now and how should I deal with it? Any help/advice folks can provide would be very appreciated. ------------------------------ From: Sean Dougherty Subject: Robert Walter's 20th Congress trades? Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:10:10 -0700 (PDT) looking for a few 20th Congress shows on dat. anyone up for a trade? drop me a line if interested. later. -sean www.gribulet.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "Eric Bogart" Subject: WTB/ISO: Shure VP-88 Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 14:48:17 -0400 Hi there. I'm looking for a nice non-stealth mic, and I've really liked my results with the VP-88. However, I've found they're incredibly hard to find for sale. Ideally, I'm looking for a used one, although I would consider a new unit, depending on cost. Any help is welcome. thanks! Eric Bogart ------------------------------ From: "travitz" Subject: Phil Lesh st Louis tickets for sale Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 15:29:44 -0400 Tickets for sale FACE value in VIP SECTION 5 of Fox Theatre St Louis. Face Value only and I'll pay shipping ------------------------------ From: Stefan Cooke Subject: Security at Axis, Boston? Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:21:52 -0400 (EDT) Has anyone taped at Axis since the 9/11 attacks? Have they increased security at the door? Thanks, Stefan ------------------------------ From: Delano Subject: new postal radiation machines Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:44:39 -0400 Will the new radiation equipment, soon to be in use by the post office, negatively affect dat's that are irradiated during shipping? If so, how should dat's be packaged to prevent this? Take Care, Delano http://www.geocities.com/digitaldelano/ Take Care, Delano http://www.geocities.com/digitaldelano/ ------------------------------ From: CWDATHEAD@aol.com Subject: FS:Sound Devices MP2 & GP ADC-20 Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:16:25 EDT For Sale: Sound Devices MP2 (Preamp)/Bought new from Sonic Sense 3/2000 Graham Patten ADC20 48 kHz (A>D Converter)/Bought used from Sonic Sense 2/2001 Echo-Charge Sigma Plus battery system/Bought new from Sonic Sense 3/2000 I'll entertain all serious offers. Must go as a package. Buyer Pays $30 Nextday Air Peace, Greg cwdathead@aol.com http://www.colorwheel.org ------------------------------ From: "Larry P. Milhouse" Subject: ISO: Waterboys Atlanta Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 23:14:19 Dumbass here had bad record levels while taping this show, so it came out a bit over-recorded. Anyone at the Waterboys show in Atlanta at the Roxy get a good tape? I am so hating this, looking for someone to bail me out. Thanks! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Dan Greenberg" Subject: extra ABB 8/04/01 (on DAT) for B+P Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:54:16 -0400 This is for the Allman Brothers show at Charlotte, NC on 8/04/01. It was recorded w/ DPA 4023 mics FOB in the left center of the orchestra. It's on one Sony 90m DAT. In return, I'd like a sealed Sony or Maxell 90m DAT plus postage. First to respond after the Digest hits my mailbox gets it (unless you're willing to do B+P's for others, which I would give preference to...in which case tell me how many you're willing to make). -Dan- ------------------------------ From: Liam Sean Kennedy Subject: possible DNS interruption datheads.phish.net Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:04:35 -0400 Hi, This is the third episode in the dat-heads domain problem saga. "nextlink.net" has expired from some DNS servers and this may affect datheads.phish.net which depend on that. I have a long term solution to this (datheads.org), but there are some reasons why this has not been implemented yet (namely I do not have a machine to uncouple it from "nextlink.net" yet). If this does cause interruption to your digests, my apologies... I think it will be corrected soon. If not, I will ask the phish.net administrators to work around it. Thanks for your patience, Sean ------------------------------ From: Chris Jones Subject: Chris Whitley Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:44:25 -0400 Has Chris Whitley's taping policy been altered since his addition to the ATO Records roster? I am interested in taping an upcoming gig, and have contacted folks at management, but have yet to hear back from them. If anyone knows, a note would be much appreciated. Best regards, Chris Jones jonescx@bc.edu ------------------------------ From: Les Gordon Subject: cd special Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 00:30:58 -0400 (EDT) hello everyone, i have 24x rated us made cdrs, 500 for $100 delivered. these are 80 min. and have a clear protective layer on top.. email me at lesg@microserve.net QUESTIONS REGARDING, VIDEO TAPES TRANSFERED TO *DVD* CUSTOM COLOR CD/DVD PRINTING & DUPLICATION http://www.recordableneeds.com BLANK CDR MEDIA & SUPPLIES http://www.cdrecordable.com phone orders, (877)289-2377 email, lesg@cd-recordable.com CDR TRADE LIST http://www.geocities.com/mistercdr ------------------------------ From: Stuart Gerber Subject: ISO: oysterhead asheville xtras Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 04:06:54 -0400 hey im on the hunt for a few friends.. let me know if someting could be worked out for 1 or 2 xtras .. 2 would be better. trades ,etc can be arranged.. im going to b'ham tomorrow to tape soul live and KDTU peace, stuart ------------------------------ From: "Mincey, Patrick" Subject: Moisture and Mics Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 06:44:21 -0400 Anyone have good recommendations for keeping moisture out of my microphones? I've got the Neumann made jewel case for my Neumann KM184, and will sometimes keep them in the plastic sleeves within the case. Is it unwise to put some of the synthetic salt packs in the case to absorb? Any tips here? What storage conditions are bad for my mics? Thanks pmm ------------------------------ From: Jerry Zigmont Subject: Looking For Afro Celt Sound System Trade Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:24:43 -0400 Recently recorded Afro Celt Sound System via the live web broadcast on October 2 from Shephards Bush Empire. Total of an 1 hour 56 minutes of music which I digitally enhanced in PEAK. Looking for a trade on CDR or DAT of other Afro Celt material. Thanks Jerry ------------------------------ From: Sebastian Boschert Subject: FT: Rollins Band / Mother Superior Oct-23 Stuttgart, Germany Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 17:49:42 +0200 Hello! I taped Rollins Band and Mother Superior last night at the LKA Longhorn in Stuttgart, Germany. The recordings are really nice, but I missed the first few seconds of Mother Superior's set. Here's the Info: 23-October-2001 LKA Longhorn; Stuttgart, Germany Source: OKM-IIr>SBM1>M1 Mother Superior: 40 minutes, 9.5/10 Rollins Band: 80 minutes, 9.5/10 Both of these shows are of course up for trades. I'm especially interested in DAT clones of any Smashing Pumpkins and recent Stone Temple Pilots or Garbage shows. But I also accept many other bands, so just make me an offer if you want a copy ;) -- Sebastian Boschert E-Mail: sebi@foo.dyndns.org ICQ: 2010141 ------------------------------ From: "Stanley W. Smith" Subject: Re: Matrix & onstage mic placement - a primer Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:10:43 -0500 Hey Now, Not much going in or out of the studio today, and I'm having hells' own time getting a large guage cable into a right angle XLR (broke two strain relief clamps already today... grr...), so lemme' see if I can shed some light on this. I broke Adams' text into individual lines for ease of answering... ~~~~~~~~~~~~ >From: Adam Smith >Subject: Matrix and on stage mic placement >Reply-To: adaml@lanset.com >Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:26:53 -0700 >I will be recording at a small club of about 100 where mostly vocals only are coming out of the PA. The house sound guy knows what he's about, then. You just can't fight loud with more loud - as in, if the guitar is already loud enough, why add more into the PA mix? It just makes mud... or the drummer needs more monitor volume... Either way, not a good thing. ;) So, what this really means is that a tape of the SBD mix alone is going to be vocal and drum heavy, and guitar and electric instruments light. Just what's needed for the room, but not as great for later listening. It is also missing some of the dynamic interaction between the band and the assembled audience... Hence the need to add some of the room sound back to the tape mix. The AUD tape can also sound bad, due to any of a great number of causes; Boominess due to secondary room reflections, bad room design, airconditioning ducts that resonate at critical frequencies, or simply too damn much bass out of the sub cabinets, chattering concert goers (...sheesh! :| ), or bad placement and mic choices can all scrag a tape. It does have usefull information that will allows you to locate the various players and how they are arranged (and the jackass hollering "Freebird!" in the fourth row as well...), but it's sometimes lacking the clarity and punch of the soundboard signal. The whole point of matrix recording is to combine the best features of both the SBD and AUD types of recordings, recreating as close as possible the experience of listening to that act in that room. >There are two PA speakers mounted approximately 12-15 ft off the ground. Not too much of an issue, especially if you're running a matrix tape and are getting the signal that's feeding them already. Let's ignore 'em for now. >Some shows a sbd feed is available others not. A matrix tape is near impossible then... ;) Difficult without some 110v AC power as well... I have yet to discover a clean sounding delay unit that runs on batteries. There are some guitar pedal type things that _might_ work, but most of those types can not be set to produce time delay without adding various other sounds, reflections, and reverbs to the signal. Other things you're going to need include some way of combining the board and mic signals in the right proportions, stands or clamps to mount the mics with, enough cable to plug it all together, a good roll of duct tape, and some way of monitoring the resulting blend. There are a lot of good sounding small mixers these days, mounting hardware is cheap and easily available, likewise cable and a good set of headphones, so the only critical component is some way of time aligning the two sets of signals. More on this later... Showing up early, getting to know the sound guy, and finding an out of the main traffic place to set it all up, aren't such a bad ideas either. >Because of the seats up front 3 ft will be the highest the mic stand can be raised. I assume you mean onstage? There's several ways to go here... Either use one of the standard mic geometries (ORTF, NOS, X/Y) and carefully place the pair so as to replicate the onstage placement of the instruments in the stereo imaging of the tape, or split the pair onto two separate stands and place accordingly. The size of the stage will determine how far apart you want to place them, but I'd avoid separation of more than 15' unless the stage is huge. The other option is to do a similar placement somewhere in the house... I usually like to hang the mics from the ceiling for several reasons (ease of isolation from crowd noise, no cables to tape down, etc.), but you will have to do some sort of time correction to match the arrival time of the SBD and AUD signals. You will have to pay attention to mic placement and geometry in relation to the house speakers/stage, but techniques that work for recording a good sounding AUD tape will do you fine. >When using a matrix feed the mics would be a few horizontal feet from the speakers and around ten >vertical feet from them. If you're placing the mics onstage, you're trying to get isolation from the house sound, so focus on getting a good sounding image of the stage instruments, and aim away from the PA. In the house, a solid 110 degree ORTF geometry centered in the room will usually do well, as long as you're capturing the imaging of the stacks and the stage in perspective. (Good imaging in stereo is "L - C - R", with the instruments sounding as if they are coming from specific locations in that field. Too wide a pattern will give you the early reflections from the side walls of the venue, (l/L - C - R/r), too narrow and you'll be a bit too monophonic/collapsed imaging (l -cCc-r ). Ideally you want to locate the mics as far away from the speaker stacks as the stacks are apart from each other. >I'm wondering what kind of delay I need if any. Here's where it gets tricky - get the best you can afford. I've had great results w/ one of the TCE D*2 units, likewise with an aged Klark Technic archetectural delay, and some success with a Symetrix 606 multi effect unit... Shop around, listen to a bunch of different ones, use your ears. What ever you end up with, you'll want to be able to turn off all but the time delay functions. Frippertronics can be great fun, but not on the master tape... For onstage placement, you usually don't need any, unless we're dealing with that huge ass stage again... (Though I do use delays as short as 15 - 25 ms for onstage mic positions, especially for classical chamber music or choral stuff where I have some control over the placement of the musicians as well as the placement of the mics it's not strictly required.) Think of each instrument/amplifier as a point source for it's own sound. That sound will reach the mics in a specific time. The next instrument is at a different distance from the mic, so there's a different arrival time relative to the first instruments' sound. You'd only have to get this complicated in a multitracking situation where you were combining widely separated onstage sources with widely separated audience mics, but it's a good example. What we're after here is figuring out the proper time correction between the SBD and AUD signals, applying that to whichever is arriving first, and getting a good blend betwen the two signals. >Is 1 ms a foot a good rule of thumb? This'll work allright for distances under 100 feet, tho the actual figure for speed of sound is 340 m/s -or- 10.87 x 10*2 ft/sec... It breaks down to about that foot per millisecond estimate for shorter distances in dry air... So if the mics are 100' from the stacks, then you'll need slightly less than 100ms delay. (A bit of extra delay can really fatten up the sound of the mix (bass frequencies are some slower at propagating than midrange or high end ones, so this will result in a lengthening effect of lower sustained notes, almost a doubling...), a bit less than the calculated delay will tighten up and flatten out the sound, similar to adding a gated reverb to a snare drum. "Pre-delay" would be an accurate way of describing it. How do you figure the delay? 100' tape measure works well for me... >When just running the mics from that position (Cardioids) I'm wondering how well the mics will pick >up the vocals? Onstage? Nothing but monitor signal, and that out of phase. In-house? Maybe too much... YMMV I try to avoid the stage monitors whenever possible... it's an entirely different animal, and not what I really need to fill out the holes in the board feed signal. >Will the sound be relatively balanced or will the mics mainly pick up the individual amps and the drums >on the stage? Maybe...It depends on how well you position the mics with reference to the instruments onstage, and how loud they are. Luckily, locating the individual amps and placing the drummer in the center of the stereo image is what you want to achieve with the mics. :) If I can get the drum kit to appear in the stereo image as it does onstage, then I'm close to an ideal mic placement. Listen to what the mics sound like, listen to what it sounds like _at_ the mics, and then get them sounding as close to identical as possible. You've already got what amounts to a mirror image of the stage sound in the SBD feed, so now you need to combine the two, and listen, again. I start out most mixes with about a 70% SBD / 30% AUD blend, but depending on the type of act (metal bands definitely need _less_ stage sound in the mix...), mic positioning, and the venue itself this varies considerably. With a really kicking house sound I'll go as far as 60/40, but too much might as well be a straight AUD tape. If the venue sounds like cack, then it's more often onstage mics, and an 85/15 mix. Get too heavy on the SBD feed, and the room and the crowd response dissapears. Another interesting thing about this is that you don't have to do this at the time of the show, if you have access to both the SBD and AUD tapes...Load it to the drive, time align it, track it, burn it... Pro Tools anyone? ;) >Any and all feedback from experienced folks would be greatly appreciated "Ska-ree-e-e-e-e-ch..." ;) Hope this gives you a better idea of how to approach this type of recording, Stan Smith ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** To unsubscribe from this digest, please send email to dat-heads-unsubscribe@datheads.phish.net If your email address has changed, you may (optionally) send the message to dat-heads-unsubscribe-oldaddress=olddomain@datheads.phish.net and the old address will be removed. 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