DAT-heads Digest #91
Contents:
ISO Lloyds tour at Detroit (Greg Starks)
Magnolia Music Festival tapes ("Otto, Michael")
FOR SALE: SONY PCM-601ESD DIGITAL AUDIO PROCESSOR ("Jack Weston")
ISO Black Crowes 10/11/01 Ypsilanti, MI (tony)
U2 @ MSG (kevin baker)
Any Airline Hassle Updates? (Dan Gale)
Robert Walter's 20th Congress trades? (Sean Dougherty)
WTB/ISO: Shure VP-88 ("Eric Bogart")
Phil Lesh st Louis tickets for sale ("travitz")
Security at Axis, Boston? (Stefan Cooke)
new postal radiation machines (Delano)
FS:Sound Devices MP2 & GP ADC-20 (CWDATHEAD@aol.com)
ISO: Waterboys Atlanta ("Larry P. Milhouse")
extra ABB 8/04/01 (on DAT) for B+P ("Dan Greenberg")
possible DNS interruption datheads.phish.net (Liam Sean Kennedy)
Chris Whitley (Chris Jones)
cd special (Les Gordon)
ISO: oysterhead asheville xtras (Stuart Gerber)
Moisture and Mics ("Mincey, Patrick")
Looking For Afro Celt Sound System Trade (Jerry Zigmont)
FT: Rollins Band / Mother Superior Oct-23 Stuttgart, Germany (Sebastian Boschert)
Re: Matrix & onstage mic placement - a primer ("Stanley W. Smith")
From: Greg Starks <starksgr@msu.edu>
Subject: ISO Lloyds tour at Detroit
Reply-To: starksgr@msu.edu
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:15:43 -0400
Greetings:
I was lucky enough to see the Lloyds Blues tour this summer with Tommy Castro, John Hiatt, and Buddy Guy. BB King also played, but he talked more, and I
have no interest in a BB recording. Hiatt and Guy, on the other hand, destroyed Detroit. I would LOVE to have a copy of that show. Lots of old Phish and other
stuff to trade, please let me know if you can help with this show or any other from this tour.
Thanks!
Greg Starks
From: "Otto, Michael" <Michael_Otto@tvratings.com>
Subject: Magnolia Music Festival tapes
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:20:21 -0400
Hi
I would love to get some music from the Magfest last weekend. A great
weekend of music and fun.
Especially the Radiators, Donna The Buffalo, and Peter Rowan sets (incl Sam
Bush).
Any chance someone is willing to tree these, or share them in a trade?
thanks
michael
___________________
Michael Otto
Nielsen Media Research
Dunedin Florida
727/738-3000 ext 2352
From: "Jack Weston" <jweston2@qwest.net>
Subject: FOR SALE: SONY PCM-601ESD DIGITAL AUDIO PROCESSOR
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:33:49 -0500
FOR SALE: SONY PCM-601ESD DIGITAL AUDIO PROCESSOR/ COPY OF OWNER'S MANUAL.
FOR DETAILS VISIT THE DIGITAL MUSIC ARCHIVES WEB SITE AT:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jweston2/index.htm
From: tony <verity@usol.com>
Subject: ISO Black Crowes 10/11/01 Ypsilanti, MI
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:42:39 -0400
Hi,
I'm looking for any recordings from the 10/11/01 show. I have one '01
BC master and many other recordings to offer in trade.
thanks,
--
-tony
From: kevin baker <baker1023@yahoo.com>
Subject: U2 @ MSG
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:49:34 -0700 (PDT)
Will anyone taping or going to the either of the first
two U2 shows at MSG please email me directly. I'm
looking for some information before I head down for
show number 3.
thanks,
Kevin
__________________________________________________
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From: Dan Gale <dgale@northcoast.com>
Subject: Any Airline Hassle Updates?
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:06:49 -0700
I'm going to be flying to some shows this weekend and am hoping some
folks have some recent experiences with new airport security and what I
should expect. In particular I am concerned about explaining numerous
taping gizmos, tons of cables, mic stand, and a couple of eco-charge
batteries. I had heard of airline hassles with the eco-charges before -
is this worse now and how should I deal with it?
Any help/advice folks can provide would be very appreciated.
From: Sean Dougherty <gribulet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Robert Walter's 20th Congress trades?
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:10:10 -0700 (PDT)
looking for a few 20th Congress shows on dat. anyone
up for a trade? drop me a line if interested. later.
-sean
www.gribulet.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com
From: "Eric Bogart" <bogart.16@osu.edu>
Subject: WTB/ISO: Shure VP-88
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 14:48:17 -0400
Hi there.
I'm looking for a nice non-stealth mic, and I've really liked my results
with the VP-88. However, I've found they're incredibly hard to find for
sale. Ideally, I'm looking for a used one, although I would consider a
new unit, depending on cost. Any help is welcome. thanks!
Eric Bogart
From: "travitz" <travitz@op.net>
Subject: Phil Lesh st Louis tickets for sale
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 15:29:44 -0400
Tickets for sale FACE value in VIP SECTION 5 of Fox Theatre St Louis. Face
Value only and I'll pay shipping
From: Stefan Cooke <scooke@shellyeah.org>
Subject: Security at Axis, Boston?
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:21:52 -0400 (EDT)
Has anyone taped at Axis since the 9/11 attacks? Have they increased
security at the door?
Thanks,
Stefan
From: Delano <eagle-winged-palace@home.com>
Subject: new postal radiation machines
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:44:39 -0400
Will the new radiation equipment, soon to be in use by the post office,
negatively affect dat's that are irradiated during shipping? If so, how
should dat's be packaged to prevent this?
Take Care,
Delano
http://www.geocities.com/digitaldelano/
Take Care,
Delano
http://www.geocities.com/digitaldelano/
From: CWDATHEAD@aol.com
Subject: FS:Sound Devices MP2 & GP ADC-20
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:16:25 EDT
For Sale:
Sound Devices MP2 (Preamp)/Bought new from Sonic Sense 3/2000
Graham Patten ADC20 48 kHz (A>D Converter)/Bought used from Sonic Sense 2/2001
Echo-Charge Sigma Plus battery system/Bought new from Sonic Sense 3/2000
I'll entertain all serious offers. Must go as a package. Buyer Pays $30
Nextday Air
Peace,
Greg
cwdathead@aol.com
http://www.colorwheel.org
From: "Larry P. Milhouse" <larry_p_milhouse@hotmail.com>
Subject: ISO: Waterboys Atlanta
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 23:14:19
Dumbass here had bad record levels while taping this show, so it came out a
bit over-recorded. Anyone at the Waterboys show in Atlanta at the Roxy get a
good tape? I am so hating this, looking for someone to bail me out. Thanks!
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
From: "Dan Greenberg" <letitgro@warwick.net>
Subject: extra ABB 8/04/01 (on DAT) for B+P
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:54:16 -0400
This is for the Allman Brothers show at Charlotte, NC on 8/04/01.
It was recorded w/ DPA 4023 mics FOB in the left center of the
orchestra. It's on one Sony 90m DAT.
In return, I'd like a sealed Sony or Maxell 90m DAT plus postage.
First to respond after the Digest hits my mailbox gets it (unless you're
willing to do B+P's for others, which I would give preference to...in
which case tell me how many you're willing to make).
-Dan-
From: Liam Sean Kennedy <liam@fedney.tech.xo.com>
Subject: possible DNS interruption datheads.phish.net
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:04:35 -0400
Hi,
This is the third episode in the dat-heads
domain problem saga. "nextlink.net" has
expired from some DNS servers and this may
affect datheads.phish.net which depend on
that. I have a long term solution to this
(datheads.org), but there are some reasons
why this has not been implemented yet (namely
I do not have a machine to uncouple it from
"nextlink.net" yet).
If this does cause interruption to your
digests, my apologies... I think it will be
corrected soon. If not, I will ask the
phish.net administrators to work around it.
Thanks for your patience,
Sean
From: Chris Jones <jonescx@bc.edu>
Subject: Chris Whitley
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:44:25 -0400
Has Chris Whitley's taping policy been altered since his addition to the ATO
Records roster? I am interested in taping an upcoming gig, and have
contacted folks at management, but have yet to hear back from them.
If anyone knows, a note would be much appreciated.
Best regards,
Chris Jones
jonescx@bc.edu
From: Les Gordon <lesg@microserve.net>
Subject: cd special
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 00:30:58 -0400 (EDT)
hello everyone, i have 24x rated us made cdrs, 500 for $100 delivered.
these are 80 min. and have a clear protective layer on top.. email me at
lesg@microserve.net
QUESTIONS REGARDING,
VIDEO TAPES TRANSFERED TO *DVD*
CUSTOM COLOR CD/DVD PRINTING & DUPLICATION
http://www.recordableneeds.com
BLANK CDR MEDIA & SUPPLIES
http://www.cdrecordable.com
phone orders, (877)289-2377
email, lesg@cd-recordable.com
CDR TRADE LIST
http://www.geocities.com/mistercdr
From: Stuart Gerber <stuart@mindspring.com>
Subject: ISO: oysterhead asheville xtras
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 04:06:54 -0400
hey im on the hunt for a few friends.. let me know if someting could be
worked out for 1 or 2 xtras .. 2 would be better. trades ,etc can be
arranged.. im going to b'ham tomorrow to tape soul live and KDTU
peace,
stuart
From: "Mincey, Patrick" <pamincey@davidson.edu>
Subject: Moisture and Mics
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 06:44:21 -0400
Anyone have good recommendations for keeping moisture out of my microphones?
I've got the Neumann made jewel case for my Neumann KM184, and will
sometimes keep them in the plastic sleeves within the case. Is it unwise to
put some of the synthetic salt packs in the case to absorb? Any tips here?
What storage conditions are bad for my mics? Thanks
pmm
From: Jerry Zigmont <zigmont@mindspring.com>
Subject: Looking For Afro Celt Sound System Trade
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:24:43 -0400
Recently recorded Afro Celt Sound System via the live web broadcast on
October 2 from Shephards Bush Empire. Total of an 1 hour 56 minutes of
music which I digitally enhanced in PEAK.
Looking for a trade on CDR or DAT of other Afro Celt material.
Thanks
Jerry
From: Sebastian Boschert <sebi@foo.dyndns.org>
Subject: FT: Rollins Band / Mother Superior Oct-23 Stuttgart, Germany
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 17:49:42 +0200
Hello!
I taped Rollins Band and Mother Superior last night at the LKA Longhorn in
Stuttgart, Germany. The recordings are really nice, but I missed the first
few seconds of Mother Superior's set.
Here's the Info:
23-October-2001
LKA Longhorn; Stuttgart, Germany
Source: OKM-IIr>SBM1>M1
Mother Superior: 40 minutes, 9.5/10
Rollins Band: 80 minutes, 9.5/10
Both of these shows are of course up for trades. I'm especially interested
in DAT clones of any Smashing Pumpkins and recent Stone Temple Pilots or
Garbage shows. But I also accept many other bands, so just make me an offer
if you want a copy ;)
--
Sebastian Boschert
E-Mail: sebi@foo.dyndns.org
ICQ: 2010141
From: "Stanley W. Smith" <swsmith@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Matrix & onstage mic placement - a primer
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:10:43 -0500
Hey Now,
Not much going in or out of the studio today, and I'm having hells' own time
getting a large
guage cable into a right angle XLR (broke two strain relief clamps already
today... grr...),
so lemme' see if I can shed some light on this.
I broke Adams' text into individual lines for ease of answering...
~~~~~~~~~~~~
>From: Adam Smith <adaml@lanset.com>
>Subject: Matrix and on stage mic placement
>Reply-To: adaml@lanset.com
>Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:26:53 -0700
>I will be recording at a small club of about 100 where mostly vocals only
are coming out of the PA.
The house sound guy knows what he's about, then. You just can't fight loud
with more loud - as in, if
the guitar is already loud enough, why add more into the PA mix? It just
makes mud... or the drummer
needs more monitor volume... Either way, not a good thing. ;)
So, what this really means is that a tape of the SBD mix alone is going to
be vocal and drum heavy, and
guitar and electric instruments light. Just what's needed for the room, but
not as great for later listening.
It is also missing some of the dynamic interaction between the band and the
assembled audience... Hence
the need to add some of the room sound back to the tape mix.
The AUD tape can also sound bad, due to any of a great number of causes;
Boominess due to secondary
room reflections, bad room design, airconditioning ducts that resonate at
critical frequencies, or simply too
damn much bass out of the sub cabinets, chattering concert goers (...sheesh!
:| ), or bad placement and
mic choices can all scrag a tape. It does have usefull information that
will allows you to locate the various
players and how they are arranged (and the jackass hollering "Freebird!" in
the fourth row as well...), but
it's sometimes lacking the clarity and punch of the soundboard signal.
The whole point of matrix recording is to combine the best features of both
the SBD and AUD types of
recordings, recreating as close as possible the experience of listening to
that act in that room.
>There are two PA speakers mounted approximately 12-15 ft off the ground.
Not too much of an issue, especially if you're running a matrix tape and are
getting the signal that's feeding
them already. Let's ignore 'em for now.
>Some shows a sbd feed is available others not.
A matrix tape is near impossible then... ;) Difficult without some 110v AC
power as well... I have yet to
discover a clean sounding delay unit that runs on batteries. There are some
guitar pedal type things that
_might_ work, but most of those types can not be set to produce time delay
without adding various other
sounds, reflections, and reverbs to the signal.
Other things you're going to need include some way of combining the board
and mic signals in the right
proportions, stands or clamps to mount the mics with, enough cable to plug
it all together, a good roll of
duct tape, and some way of monitoring the resulting blend.
There are a lot of good sounding small mixers these days, mounting hardware
is cheap and easily available, likewise cable and a good set of headphones,
so the only critical component is some way of time aligning the two sets of
signals.
More on this later...
Showing up early, getting to know the sound guy, and finding an out of the
main traffic place to set it all up, aren't such a bad ideas either.
>Because of the seats up front 3 ft will be the highest the mic stand can be
raised.
I assume you mean onstage? There's several ways to go here... Either use
one of the standard mic
geometries (ORTF, NOS, X/Y) and carefully place the pair so as to replicate
the onstage placement of the
instruments in the stereo imaging of the tape, or split the pair onto two
separate stands and place
accordingly. The size of the stage will determine how far apart you want
to place them, but I'd avoid
separation of more than 15' unless the stage is huge. The other option is
to do a similar placement somewhere in the house... I usually like to hang
the mics from the ceiling for several reasons (ease of
isolation from crowd noise, no cables to tape down, etc.), but you will
have to do some sort of time correction to match the arrival time of the SBD
and AUD signals.
You will have to pay attention to mic placement and geometry in relation to
the house speakers/stage,
but techniques that work for recording a good sounding AUD tape will do you
fine.
>When using a matrix feed the mics would be a few horizontal feet from the
speakers and around ten
>vertical feet from them.
If you're placing the mics onstage, you're trying to get isolation from the
house sound, so focus on getting
a good sounding image of the stage instruments, and aim away from the PA.
In the house, a solid 110
degree ORTF geometry centered in the room will usually do well, as long as
you're capturing the imaging
of the stacks and the stage in perspective.
(Good imaging in stereo is "L - C - R", with the instruments sounding as if
they are coming from specific
locations in that field. Too wide a pattern will give you the early
reflections from the side walls of the venue, (l/L - C - R/r), too narrow
and you'll be a bit too monophonic/collapsed imaging (l -cCc-r ).
Ideally you want to locate the mics as far away from the speaker stacks as
the stacks are apart from each
other.
>I'm wondering what kind of delay I need if any.
Here's where it gets tricky - get the best you can afford. I've had great
results w/ one of the TCE D*2 units,
likewise with an aged Klark Technic archetectural delay, and some success
with a Symetrix 606 multi effect unit... Shop around, listen to a bunch of
different ones, use your ears.
What ever you end up with, you'll want to be able to turn off all but the
time delay functions. Frippertronics can be great fun, but not on the
master tape...
For onstage placement, you usually don't need any, unless we're dealing with
that huge ass stage again...
(Though I do use delays as short as 15 - 25 ms for onstage mic positions,
especially for classical chamber
music or choral stuff where I have some control over the placement of the
musicians as well as the placement of the mics it's not strictly required.)
Think of each instrument/amplifier as a point source for it's own sound.
That sound will reach the mics
in a specific time. The next instrument is at a different distance from the
mic, so there's a different arrival
time relative to the first instruments' sound. You'd only have to get this
complicated in a multitracking
situation where you were combining widely separated onstage sources with
widely separated audience mics, but it's a good example.
What we're after here is figuring out the proper time correction between the
SBD and AUD signals,
applying that to whichever is arriving first, and getting a good blend
betwen the two signals.
>Is 1 ms a foot a good rule of thumb?
This'll work allright for distances under 100 feet, tho the actual figure
for speed of sound is 340 m/s -or- 10.87 x 10*2 ft/sec... It breaks down to
about that foot per millisecond estimate for shorter distances in dry
air... So if the mics are 100' from the stacks, then you'll need slightly
less than 100ms delay. (A bit of extra
delay can really fatten up the sound of the mix (bass frequencies are some
slower at propagating than
midrange or high end ones, so this will result in a lengthening effect of
lower sustained notes, almost a
doubling...), a bit less than the calculated delay will tighten up and
flatten out the sound, similar to adding a
gated reverb to a snare drum. "Pre-delay" would be an accurate way of
describing it.
How do you figure the delay? 100' tape measure works well for me...
>When just running the mics from that position (Cardioids) I'm wondering how
well the mics will pick
>up the vocals?
Onstage? Nothing but monitor signal, and that out of phase. In-house?
Maybe too much... YMMV
I try to avoid the stage monitors whenever possible... it's an entirely
different animal, and not what I really need to fill out the holes in the
board feed signal.
>Will the sound be relatively balanced or will the mics mainly pick up the
individual amps and the drums >on the stage?
Maybe...It depends on how well you position the mics with reference to the
instruments onstage, and how
loud they are.
Luckily, locating the individual amps and placing the drummer in the center
of the stereo image is what you want to achieve with the mics. :) If I can
get the drum kit to appear in the stereo image as it does onstage,
then I'm close to an ideal mic placement. Listen to what the mics sound
like, listen to what it sounds like
_at_ the mics, and then get them sounding as close to identical as possible.
You've already got what amounts to a mirror image of the stage sound in the
SBD feed, so now you need to
combine the two, and listen, again.
I start out most mixes with about a 70% SBD / 30% AUD blend, but depending
on the type of act (metal
bands definitely need _less_ stage sound in the mix...), mic positioning,
and the venue itself this varies
considerably.
With a really kicking house sound I'll go as far as 60/40, but too much
might as well be a straight AUD tape.
If the venue sounds like cack, then it's more often onstage mics, and an
85/15 mix. Get too heavy on the
SBD feed, and the room and the crowd response dissapears.
Another interesting thing about this is that you don't have to do this at
the time of the show, if you have
access to both the SBD and AUD tapes...Load it to the drive, time align it,
track it, burn it...
Pro Tools anyone? ;)
>Any and all feedback from experienced folks would be greatly appreciated
"Ska-ree-e-e-e-e-ch..." ;) <the drummers monitor was turned up too loud,
again...>
Hope this gives you a better idea of how to approach this type of recording,
Stan Smith
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