DAT-heads Digest #245, Volume #6 Sun, 10 Mar 02 23:50:01 EST Contents: ISO: Sex Mob w/medeski: Knitting Factory 2-28-02 (JBABC0CK@aol.com) RE: Jon Spencer ("Graham Nelson") 50 pack Fuji's for $4.95 @ Best Buy! ("Bob Silver") Sir Paul (Tom Cavanaugh) Re: Cheap DAT storage at IKEA (Drew Caruso) Re: ("Tom Reizes") RATDOG (CCFLAMEWORKS@webtv.net) PC Digital Sound cards? ("Red Eye") ISO: Foo Fighters Olympic Medals DAT ("Michael Hanson") notwist ("J. Garcia") Re: Cheap DAT storage at IKEA (Mark Mayhle) FS Pair of AKG C1000S mics with extras ("Seth Goldberger") Dat liquidation (JEBAAD@cs.com) The Death of DAT? (CatalystX) RE How to record an orchestra (LONG) (richmays) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JBABC0CK@aol.com Subject: ISO: Sex Mob w/medeski: Knitting Factory 2-28-02 Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 05:25:09 EST Well, it's finally happened. The once in a lifetime recording of the one-off gig, supporting my favorite CD of the year: "Sex-Mob Does Bond." Got there early, got the right spot. Got great sound on the tape-- a perfect mix of Monitor, instruments & PA. Now I'm listening to the tape for the first time and it's got drop-outs everywhere. Sounds like the mic jack is slipping in and out of the deck. Arrrrgh! Now, am I an idiot, or what? This is killing me. The only other time they did this show I was out of town and it's not going to happen again. Now I know that the straight 1/8 inch plug for the coresounds mics doesn't fit as snug as it should into the D8, so I've wrapped my pouch to be sure it stays put. I was sure I had a foolproof system. But tonight it didn't and-- ouch! Not even one complete song. Ruined. I can't even patch this mess and it's probably the best sound I've ever caught on tape. Arrrrgh! So what am I looking at? Do I have to reservice the deck and get new plugs installed (ouch!) -- do i have to send the mics back for a new (preferably L-shaped) plug -- do I have to create a whole new more delicate system of wiring it all up? Or is my entire life just going to become a mess of tape wrapped around my gear? The problem would be solved if it were just snug, but Nooooooo.... I know this has happened to some of you before, so after you stopped screaming and banging your head against the wall, how did you deal with the connection? More to the point, though--did anyone reading this catch the show who can spin me a copy? BW tax: MMW Red cross Benefit at Tonic 9/18/01 to the first 3 people that reply to tell me what a loser I am. jb ------------------------------ From: "Graham Nelson" Subject: RE: Jon Spencer Reply-To: Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:58:53 -0000 Jon was a reader and sometime contributor to another list of which I am still a member - the NakList, for fans of Nakamichi cassette decks. He and his team may be anti-DAT for the recording of his gigs, but I've a feeling it might be more because he'd prefer us to use analogue, probably a portable Nakamichi MR1 or a nice Nakamichi ZX-9, or (better still) ZXL1000, on a table top!! In fact, he was very helpful to me, offering good advice on what equipment to buy (cheaply) so that I could begin archiving a collection of 78rpms. (I gather he has a large collection of blues and jazz on 78s.) However, he vanished into the night when one of the other members outed him as being THE Jon Spencer and made a fuss about it! Graham --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.330 / Virus Database: 184 - Release Date: 28/02/02 ------------------------------ From: "Bob Silver" Subject: 50 pack Fuji's for $4.95 @ Best Buy! Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:46:53 -0500 Just saw it this morning in the Paper! 50 pack Fuji's for $4.95 @ Best Buy! Gather the memories and spread the love!! Peace, Boca Bob Silver ~~ ) ~~~~ )> ~~~~ )> ~~ http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/b/o/bocabob/TAPELIST.HTM http://www.thephilzone.com/ ~~ ) ~~~~ )> ~~~~ )> ~~ ------------------------------ From: Tom Cavanaugh Subject: Sir Paul Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 09:28:14 -0500 Hello Heads Looking for 3 tickets for Paul McCartneys concet at the FU Center in Philadelphia on 4-16-02. Please contact me if you have extra tickets or know of anyone else who does. Thanks, Tom ------------------------------ From: Drew Caruso Subject: Re: Cheap DAT storage at IKEA Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 10:31:52 -0500 I have been using one of these for some time...the only bad thing with them is that you need to make sure you clean all of the sawdust remains from them when you get it home. Otherwise I love it and it is simple to use and perfectly stores the tapes. Drew www.geocities.com/drewcatc <<>> ------------------------------ From: "Tom Reizes" Subject: Re: Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 10:45:00 -0500 Are you getting paid for this, b/c if you are, and there will be an audience (and God forbid any type of paper prgoram being handed out to said audience) then you will NOT want to set you mics up far back in the room. First off: assuming a church has GOOD acoustics (even remotely) is chance-y, Second: How far off the road is the church (i.e. is there any possibilitty of picking up the low rumble of a semi passing in the distance?) If you are recording classical, you are going to be faced with a wide dynamic range and don't want the quiet parts marred by the sweet sounds of civilisation b/c you placed the mics too far from the signal you want, so you pick up the noise you don't. Third: X-Y over the conducters head: A good suggestion, but chances are you are going to want two things out of your Orchestra recording 1) A wide stereo image, and 2) accurate placement of instruments within that image. X-Y will not give you those things, but rather a highly focused point-source between your speakers on playback... X-Y = good mono-compatibility and "small" stereo image, accurate time domain, but a lack-lustre listening experience. My $.10: GO ORTF over the conductor's head, or more likely in your situation, directly behind the conductor (give enough room for the conductorto feel comfortable - 3' clearnace - and discuss similar options with them well before the performance). ORTF will also work somewhat further back in the room (upto ~10'), but at a certain point you will want to tighten the angle between the mics to avoid unnecessary reflections. The benefits of ORTF: Include the two I mentioned in my orignal third point. 1) W - I - D - E stereo image, and 2) accurate placement of the instruments within that image +/- 5-10% between your stereo speakers at home (vs. X-Y which will result in a tiny orchestra floating in a spot between you stereo speakers.) Final thoughts: I have recorded in many strange rooms, and sometimes you have to take what you can get. Don't be led astray by misconceptions about how sound and microphones work. Mics are not flashlights, they pick up sound all around, with varying attenuation according to the polar pattern ad quality of the mic. GET A GOOD BOOK on stereo technique (any bruce bartlett book is a great place to start) and read up. Remember, you want a good recording of the music with the feel of a room, not a recording of the room with some music in it. The closer you can be to a sound source, the better (until you start getting down the throat of the instrument, or start to severely compromise the capture of another section of the orchestra). Sure, you want to give the sound room to grow to it's fullest, but a good set of microphones will capture this. Besides, have you ever seen a conductor conduct from 2/3's back in a room, why put you mics there if you don't have to? This comes from someone who has made mistakes in the past, don't be surprised on show day when the audience is rustling paper programs, jackets, taking bathroom breaks and wildly applauding their niece who is the soloist. Obviously there are many ways you make this recording successful, it really depends on your equipment and a slew of location related variables. Another great method if you have the necessary gear would be the already suggested (previous post) spaced omnis (cut the orch into thirds wit mics at the 1/3 adn 2/3 marks) strainght on to the orch at listening level. This would perform excellently, and would avoid the hassle hindering the audiences view of the conductor and vice-versa when a stand is placed behind him/her. Regarding height of mic placement: unless you a stuck recrding from the pews with the rest of the audience, the mics level with the conductors head, or just above the orchestra (don't point the mic directly at the violin section if they a 5 feet away) btw: ORTF = two cardioids, mic elements spaced 170mm at 110 degrees... this will SEEM like an extreme angle to the un-initiated and indeed I have had sound egineers scoff at it when I set up, they are always pleasantly surprised when they hear the results. Your mileage may vary, but when the opportunity is ripe, ORTF rules. Spaced omnis are cool too, but b/c they are not a near-coincident array (ORTF, NOS, AB) or a coincident (X-Y, blumein, etc.) you will be faced with potentially exagerated issues in the time domain (phase), but if the church is small and you keep the spacing down somewhere in the region of up to 10 feet (+/- a couple), you will be fine. Peace, tr Slave to the ORTF Bar. The results are just so damn good, consistently ;o) ------------------------------ From: CCFLAMEWORKS@webtv.net Subject: RATDOG Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:39:02 -0500 (EST) looking for someone who taped ratdog at the hippodrome in sringfield mass. did not bring gear . maybe the gu y who got that grey fox cd i gave away at the show who helped me out at the heartbreak hotel in RI. will give me a shout thanks to anyone who can help me !!! chris ------------------------------ From: "Red Eye" Subject: PC Digital Sound cards? Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 12:15:00 -0500 Hi... I am putting together a new pc, and I'm wondering what is a good sound card to install with digital inputs so I can transfer DAT recordings directly to my hardrive for mastering? Thanks, Clint _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ From: "Michael Hanson" Subject: ISO: Foo Fighters Olympic Medals DAT Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 02:55:57 +0800 Looking for a Foo Fighters DAT (or CD-R) of their set from the Olympic Medals plaza that was aired on CBC. I have a 1st gen VHS, but I'm looking for better audio quality. Have much to trade. Thanks. Mike -- --- Mike Hanson ------------------------------ From: "J. Garcia" Subject: notwist Reply-to: elektrik@navegalia.com Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 20:04:30 +0100 looking for someone who will tape any of the notwist shows from their tour in Europe. too see the dates: www.notwist.com i have a few recordings for trade, all from spanish shows: autour de lucie goldfrapp senor coconut add n to x coil polak sneaker pimps Jose Garcia elektrik@navegalia.com ------------------------------ From: Mark Mayhle Subject: Re: Cheap DAT storage at IKEA Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 14:46:36 -0600 (CST) On Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Drew Caruso wrote: > I have been using one of these for some time...the only bad thing with > them is that you need to make sure you clean all of the sawdust remains > from them when you get it home. Otherwise I love it and it is simple to > use and perfectly stores the tapes. Yes, a good going-over with a tack cloth is needed. My brother suggested finishing them with a couple coats of tung oil which I may try. The construction, btw, is glued box joints. -- Mark Mayhle mark@mayhle.com ------------------------------ From: "Seth Goldberger" Subject: FS Pair of AKG C1000S mics with extras Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 14:45:46 -0500 Hey there, I am selling my AKG C1000S mics and have listed them on ebay. There are a group of extras being offered with these mics, so enjoy: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=851080254 The list of what I am selling is as follows: 2 - AKG C1000S Microphones in original mint condition boxes 4 - AKG SA 43 Microphone Mounts (two bonus mounts in case you lose one) 3 - Windscreens (one bonus windscreen in case you lose one) 3 - Hypercardiod capsules (one bonus capsule in case you lose one) 2 - Nine Volt batteries (extras) 2 - Original Owners Manuals 2 - AKG PB1000 Presence Boost Adapters (with info sheets and charts) 2 - Warranty Cards (original) 1 - AKG Acoustics Sticker 1 - Mic T-bar (great for mounting two mics to one stand for live recording of shows - extra bonus) -seth ------------------------------ From: JEBAAD@cs.com Subject: Dat liquidation Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 16:58:29 EST I'm looking to get rid of some DAT tapes in batches of 10. I'll take 10 new tapes (Maxell or Sony) or a spindle of blank CDR's (FujiFilm, Mitsui, Sony) or $30.00 for each batch. Your choice. Email me for info Pick any 10 tapes from my list which is located here http://hmt.com/music/GM/mulebase/Tapelist.HTM ------------------------------ From: CatalystX Subject: The Death of DAT? Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 15:38:59 -0800 I knew DAT recorders would fade away eventually, but I didn't expect it to happen quite so soon. They will of course be used for many more years, but it seems the Sony models will only be available used. The M1 is the best truly portable recorder I've seen, and it's a shame that it's reached end of life status already. I know it's not perfect by any standards though, and have been waiting for a better product to replace it, but none are available so far. Audio manufacturers need to get moving on this and design the product that's leaving a increasingly large hole in the market, a high quality portable hard drive recorder. I know laptops are becoming popular for this, but they're simply not practical enough for widespread use. Here's my idea of the perfect portable recorder, which I'll be happy to spend a ton of cash on as soon as a company implements it: 24bit/96khz A/D 128x oversampling analog input via XLR/TRS connectors 115db+ of dynamic range High quality mic preamps with phantom power and selectable attenuator Unbalanced/balanced line level input Separate L/R level controls with selectable bass roll-off Digital input via AES/EBU, coax and optical S/PDIF, Firewire Unbalanced/balanced analog output via XLR/TRS connectors Headphone output with a 1/4" connection Digital output via AES/EDU, coax and optical S/PDIF, Firewire Selectable sampling rate and word length digital output Upgradable hard drive with large RAM buffers for skip protection Rechargable lithium ion battery with at least 6 hours of life Built-in, fully adjustable compressor LCD interface, with upgradable OS Ability to interface with all major operating systems via Firewire There are probably some more features that could be added, but those are the most important in my mind. This beast would obviously be expensive and larger than a M1, but if you dream, you might as well dream big. I know many of you would be very willing to spend a few thousand on such a device, I sure would. Less full featured models could be produced of course, as well as more featured, maybe some with multi-track input for those with soundboard access or a need to use more microphones. So, if any audio manufacturers are listening, please wake up and realize the demand for a product like I described! Aaron http://home.attbi.com/~catalystx/trading.html ------------------------------ From: richmays Subject: RE How to record an orchestra (LONG) Reply-to: richmays@comcast.net Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 23:05:31 -0500 Here's my 2 cents worth. First, I used cardioid stereo pairs for the mains for many years, but the reality is that there are only a handfull of halls where that really works well. X-Y -- lack of "space"-- too mono-sounding. Add outriggers to increase spread and string presence, and then you have the decision of where to steer them in the stereo spectrum, as well as deciding on balance. ORTF- get close enough to not lose upper overtones and the stereo image width of the orchestra is exaggerated-- ESPECIALLY with a piano concerto! Same problem with ourigger balance. DISC- some like it, but the imaging seems artificial to me-- similar in that way to the Calrec Soundfield mic. A-B omnis-- much better, thanks to the generally superior smoothness and bottom of omnis, but again, usually needs more upper/lower string presence than you get from being several feet behind the podium. In a good church acoustic it just might work, however. Play around with separation, but in most acoustics anything wider than 1 meter is playing with fire (unless you want a hole in the middle). See go to "Microphone University" then "Stereo Techniques". Be prepared for a LONG read. After going around frustrated for a long time I decided to try 3 spaced omnis, and EUREKA! Natural spread and image (although NOT what one could call pinpoint), but the upper/lower strings "mix themselves". Sometimes a pair in the middle is better, but this really kicks up the cost-- now the main array is four rather than three, and idealy they should all be the same. If cost is no object, however, a Decca tree might be the ticket (see ) With 3 omnis Telarc will often mount a ORTF pair of hypercardioids on the main stand to pull out a little more woodwinds when necessary. As for the hall, most halls require a stereo pair out in the hall- usually a 20-foot (about a 20 Ms delay). Again, it depends on the room, but I have found that a ORTF pair of cardioids work well. Make sure that the sides are reversed so that high strings are on the left on the main array and the hall. The advantage here is greater control of amount of reverb without losing presence in the quest of reverb. As for mic stand height, let your ears be your guide, but 9-12 feet usually works. As for distance from the ensemble (for the main array), go back further than 10 feet and there usually is not enough presence (and be forwarned that what sounds right on headphones is usually not "present" enough on speakers). Be sure to use shock mounts on all mics- Shure A39 are effective and cost-effective. For general Digital Recording info, a fantastic resource is: Add to all the above that there are exceptions to every "rule" (except the ones called the laws of physics)-- your ears and taste are the final authority! Unless the client disagrees, however. ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** To unsubscribe from this digest, please send email to dat-heads-unsubscribe@datheads.phish.net If your email address has changed, you may (optionally) send the message to dat-heads-unsubscribe-oldaddress=olddomain@datheads.phish.net and the old address will be removed. 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