DAT-heads Digest #403, Volume #6 Tue, 23 Jul 02 16:50:01 EDT Contents: Seattle taper needed 7/28/02 (Mark Mayhle) Re: Why not Digital out CD>digital input>HD? (Len Moskowitz) RE: C3000 (Geoff Lynch) Looking for...... (JAZZPUNKER@aol.com) Re: Why not Digital out CD>digital input>HD? (Bob Ramstad) EAC vs CD>SPDIF>HD, and resampling ("Jamie Lutch") ISO Atlanta Rhythm Section (Eddie Woodward) Off topic about 'Ticket BROKERS' ("Thomas Avallone") TAPERS!! ISO STRANGEFOLK (magichatr9@juno.com) RE: akg c-3000 recordings.. Anyone in LA area? (Jonathan Dombrow) Re: [tridead] Philip Chapman Lesh and Friends ("Jeff Abolafia") ISO: Pink Floyd 07.09.94 R.F.K. Stadium, Washington, DC ("James D. Kerr") ISO Blue Heron Music Festival tapers ("Chris Black") ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mark Mayhle Subject: Seattle taper needed 7/28/02 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:09:48 -0500 (CDT) I'm looking for someone to tape Bill Mallonee and the Trophy Wives (formerly Vigilantes of Love) at the Tractor Tavern. Show is scheduled for 9:30 and Bill is cool with all kinds of taping, audio and video, including sbd assuming you can work it out with the sound guy (could be easy or challenging at the Tractor, depending on who's working sound that night). I'll cover your ticket, tape, gas, a couple beers, whatever. I'll be at Down from the Mountain that night so can't attend or tape myself. But I'll be seeing Bill a couple days before and can pave the way with him if I know in advance who would be willing to tape. Thanks very much, -- Mark Mayhle mark@mayhle.com ------------------------------ From: Len Moskowitz Subject: Re: Why not Digital out CD>digital input>HD? Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:30:39 -0400 (EDT) Clancey wrote: > ...Then I thought, why not play the audio CDR > on my CD player and take the optical out and feed it through my U2A into > Cool Edit and slice it down with good old CDWAV? Would this not be > preferable to my ripping from CDR>HD via EAC? Just be sure that whatever you're using to transfer from the optical out does it accurately, bit-for-bit. "Winnie Olmer" wrote: > ...why does some equipment not simply transfer bit for bit? Some devices have driver or OS interaction problems. Some do sample rate conversions even when it's not needed. Some have bandwidth limitations on the data channel that they use. Len Moskowitz Binaural StealthMics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com moskowit@core-sound.com Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912 ------------------------------ From: Geoff Lynch Subject: RE: C3000 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:30:32 -0600 I don't know where you get off saying this. I had a pair for years and made some pretty top notch recordings. They have Card and hypercard settings, and the large diaphragm sounds great, especially for the $$$. I have made about 50 Phish masters with them and many others, running C3000>mv100>sbm-1>m1, so I don't know where you come from. my 2 cents.... Geoff BWT: Anyone who wants to hear an obnoxiously good copy of something with C3000's, drop me a line! Out of curiosity Stanley, what do you run? Why don't you give me your addy, I'll send you a disc, so you can bite your tongue! From: "Stanley Willey" Subject: RE: akg c-3000 recordings.. Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 17:37:28 -0700 Greetings DAT heads, AKG c-3000 are drum mics. They cannot produce any quality recordings unless they mixed ( via mixer ) with a omni, cardioid or figure eight pattern microphone. >>akg c-3000>v2>adc-20>hhb pdr1000>hhb 830> eac> cool edit pro> cdr I also cannot believe someone would attempt to fix a show that was taped with these microphones (ie, taking the show from a hhb to eac then editing in cool edit pro). Get a life. There has to be a hundred better sources out there. Furthermore, I hope this doesn't piss some of you guys off by my critique of the AKGc3000. I just have heard countless recording with these mics from over the years still have yet to hear anything worth trading. Peace, Stan Geoff Lynch Inside Sales Support MacroSystem US the digital video company 5485 Conestoga Court Boulder, CO 80301 303.801.1027 direct line 303.440.5311 tel 303.440.5322 fax www.casablanca.tv Check out the Newest News from MacroSystem US: http://www.casablanca.tv/news.html The information in this e-mail is confidential and is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this e-mail by anyone else is unauthorized as the content is subject of legal professional privilege. No part of this e-mail may be reproduced, altered, disclosed or distributed without a prior written agreement by the MacroSystem US. If you are not the correct recipient of this e-mail, please forward it to the original sender. ------------------------------ From: JAZZPUNKER@aol.com Subject: Looking for...... Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:43:24 EDT Looking to trade for avant-garde, Zorn & related (masada, barkohkba, etc), japanese noise/punk, free jazz and early/mid '80's hardcore on CDR. Particularly interested in Nels Cline, Eugene Chadbourne, Ruins, Charlie Hunter, GONG, Magma and Ozric Tentacles. Please email me if interested in trading. Many thanx! Ray http://members.aol.com/cdcollectr/main.html ------------------------------ From: Bob Ramstad Subject: Re: Why not Digital out CD>digital input>HD? Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:57:18 -0700 Clancey wrote: > Hey, this is probably a really ignorant question, but I thought I > would get the best input from the list... Not to be harsh, but yes, this was a very ignorant question, answered by many FAQs. > In SHN trading it is generally accepted that introducing an EAC step > is to be avoided at almost any cost. Then I thought, why not play the > audio CDR on my CD player and take the optical out and feed it through > my U2A into Cool Edit and slice it down with good old CDWAV? Would > this not be preferable to my ripping from CDR>HD via EAC? This is not preferable because it requires that every element in the chain be bit exact -- the audio CD player, the U2A, and all elements of your computer, including your burner. While in theory this is possible, in practice, it's very rare. At the very least, you'll never be able to get the track boundaries exactly right by hand. On the other hand, EAC will reread the same part of the disc multiple times to make sure that it has a bit exact copy of the contents. The resulting WAV track by track files are an exact copy of the original disc, guaranteed. (The steps of compressing them to SHN and creating MD5 checksums just make the files smaller and helps ensure that they are transmitted correctly... they have nothing to do with EAC per se.) Long story short, there's a whole hell of a lot more that can (and will) go wrong with audio CD -> U2A -> Cool Edit -> CDWAV as opposed to EAC -> WAV. I might also mention that EAC depending on your hardware can extract at 8x-12x as opposed to audio CD which runs at 1x i.e. I routinely extract discs using EAC in 6 minutes or so. Between that and the time saved by not having to use CDWAV to split tracks, and the fact that EAC is going to result in bit exact copies every time... well, there's just no comparison. There's a great FAQ at etree.org regarding EAC>SHN, it's not complicated... best way to get comfortable is to do it a few times and prove to yourself that the SHN files you're generating can be unpacked into files that match exactly the original disc. (I often compute MD5 checksums for the original WAV files as well as for the SHNs for that exact reason.) Hope this information helps! -- Bob ------------------------------ From: "Jamie Lutch" Subject: EAC vs CD>SPDIF>HD, and resampling Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:10:22 -0700 the main reason is that you are reverting your digital data back to capture of straming data on a hard disk, which is commonly thought of as the most problem-susceptible step in the transfer. not to mention you are pulling digital data off the cd player on the fly, it is using error correction EAC is far superior to this method, as it is cda digital data>secure extraction>wav digital data. secure extraction tells you about all errors compare this to cda digital data>error correction>spdif>hardware>software>hard drive EAC is great for what it does, but there are several reasons people dont like to get stuff seeded shn>cd>eac>shn: 1. 95% of all people using it dont configure the offsets correctly, so the md5's of the resulting wavs wont match the original md5's. thuis a rogue version of the show gets put into circulation, generally with very spotty lineage. since most people dont like extra handling of their bits, they dismiss these sources as 'bad'. 2. if your offsets are not set up correctly, you'll generate audible gaps at the cd flips. thus continuous playback, a property inherent in properly done shns, is lost. you are essntially 'dumbing down' the data to the limtitations of the cd format. 3. even people who think that their burn/extract setups have the correct offsets are kidding themselves, cause if that disk came from any other setup, you can bet it has a different offset than what your burner creates. you need to reconfigure your offset for that show, and the next show, and the next show, etc. The best rule of thumb is only to eac stuff that isnt available at all on shn. and if you want to do it properly, use secure mode, extract it as whole disks, restitch them seamlessly together in a wave editor, and shn them without fades for cd flips. and be very very specific about the lineage in your text file. > From: Clancey > Subject: Why not Digital out CD>digital input>HD? > Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 17:45:06 -0400 > > > Hey, this is probably a really ignorant question, but I thought I would get > the best input from the list... > > In SHN trading it is generally accepted that introducing an EAC step is to > be avoided at almost any cost. Then I thought, why not play the audio CDR > on my CD player and take the optical out and feed it through my U2A into > Cool Edit and slice it down with good old CDWAV? Would this not be > preferable to my ripping from CDR>HD via EAC? > > It seems like such an elegantly simple solution that I feel there must be > some reason I can't think of that it isn't in practice. I have a lot of > shows on CDR that I would love to SHN, but hesitate because I don't feel > comfortable doing EAC>SHN. > > I have asked this question elsewhere and have gotten responses that all say > I should take the EAC tutorial and I wouldn't need to do the CD player > step, but nobody has said why it isn't kosher to simply convert the shows > treating the CD player the same as when I go DAT>HD. Could someone please > address the CD>HD issue for me? > ------------------------------ > > From: "Winnie Olmer" > Subject: bit for bit accuracy??? where do i learn more? > Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:32:52 -0400 > > OK.. it's time for me to delve "deeper" into understanding digital music. I > soon hope to move to laptop recording and get away from high maintenance and > fragile DAT. Is there a good site that explains these concepts? For > example..why does some equipment not simply transfer bit for bit? I thought > a main feature of being digital was the ability to make exact copies. As I > am familiar with in computer files for example. So why does equipment > resample? its cheaper, and/or it pleases the music industry that would rather prevent you from amking pure copies >I was looking at starting of gradually with laptops and have been > checking out the Edirol UA-D1 USB adapter ($99). The thought was I could use > my Denecke AD-20, PS2 and Oktava's with this setup. But I cant "quantify" > how bad it may be to NOT be bit for bit accurate. for example, the edirol ua5 resamples all digital inputs. does thsi disqualify it as a useful device? not necessarily, as if you use it as a D>A, you are not resampling, but sampling once. I would bet the ua5 sounds at least as good as the adc20 for a da. > Does it sound noticeably > bad? depends on the equipment. Theres a reason that apogee and benchmark stuff is so expensive -stable clocks and superior ad algorithms. It would kind of defeat the purpose of those to take a digipatch and then reclock it with the edirol. >What is the issue of this level of inaccuracy? Any info or links to a > good tech site would be appreciated!! you may or may not hear a difference, only your ears can tell. ------------------------------ From: Eddie Woodward Subject: ISO Atlanta Rhythm Section Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:06:03 -0400 Hello. Sorry to trouble the list. (As usual) I am looking for any Atlanta Rhythm Section. Any help will be greatly appreciated! I have much to trade. Again, sorry to trouble the list. Thanks! Eddie ------------------------------ From: "Thomas Avallone" Subject: Off topic about 'Ticket BROKERS' Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 19:15:58 +0000 Sorry for being off topic here, but when I see this crap, I really get pissed off. Within 10 minutes of McCartney tickets going on PRE-sale through 'GetAccess' ($60 a year to be a member), I got my seats. As I was trying to search through the net for a graphically detailed seating chart, I came across this ticket brokers link: http://www.ticketsnow.com/search/results.cfm?restart=yes&e=2031&v=1770&s=1&month=9&day=24&year=2002 I found this approximately 3 hours AFTER the presale started, and they already have close to 40 tickets and counting !! HOW can they get away with this ?????? Doesn't 'GetAccess' or 'Clear Channel Ent' even CARE ?????? These bastards are taking tickets away from the general public in order for them to jack the price up 100-300%. It just BLOWS MY MIND how 'scaping' tickets are WRONG - but just because you have a license for SCALPING, you can call yourself a BROKER and make it legal ????? Gee - Since I own a SONY D100, and I am (so called) RENTING the seat at the venue, does this mean I can call myself a 'Private Audio Operator' in order for it to be OK with me stealthing shows ?????? BROKER my ass.....This is still SCALPING ! And I think its bullsh*t !! Pissed off in Chicago, Tom "I've heard there's joy untold Lays open like a road In front of me" ~ PJ Harvey http://www.tav2367.20m.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ From: magichatr9@juno.com Subject: TAPERS!! ISO STRANGEFOLK Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 19:20:28 GMT good day to all you tapers and traders out there! Due to a change in Strangefolk's road management, there have been shows they played this summer that have not been recorded by the band for SF Archives. So now i approach all you wonderful souls in hopes that someone has Audience tapes, or better yet Soundboard tapes of Strangefolk's Summer tour dates listed below. i will definitely make it worth your while with either strangefolk to trade or anything from my extensive home library of CD/ DATs. any help or information leading to anyone who has tapes would be greatly appreciated. 6/7/02 Adirondack Music Festival, Lyonsdale, NY 7/15/02 Atlantic Connection, Martha's Vineyard (pretty sure this one wasnt taped, but its worth a shot!) 7/17/02 Crowbar, State College, PA (co-bill w/Deep Bannana) 7/18/02 Agora Theatre, Cleveland, OH (co-bill w/Deep Bannana) 7/19/02 Club Laga, Pittsburgh, PA (co-bill w/Deep Bannana) Take it Easy~ Ben Collette Strangefolk Archives ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ From: Subject: RE: akg c-3000 recordings.. Reply-To: sloansimpson@mindspring.com Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:00:48 -0400 First, this post seems to have no OTHER purpose than to 'piss some of you guys off'. The poster you attacked was not extolling the virtues of these mics; it was a B&P offer made at the end of a worthwhile question to the list. The irony here is that the B&P offer was extended as the customary 'Waste-Of_Bandwidth Tax' even though a question was asked that many people no doubt found useful, and therefore not really a 'waste' of bandwidth. Your post, on the other hand, contributed nothing, and didn't even include a 'waste-of-bandwidth' B&P offer. As far as 'attempting' to fix the show, the original post noted that the music itself wasn't touched. If you've seen DGQ at a place like the Variety Playhouse, you'll know that it's not a very loud show and the audience applause around the taper will be louder than all but the most intense peaks of the performance. As far as a claim the mics cannot produce 'any quality recordings', how ridiculous. That's as silly as saying that any tape made from Schoeps (or B&K, or insert your mic of choice here) will ALWAYS produce quality recordings. I own a pair of 3000's. Am I satisfied with them? No. I want something better. Do I use them? You bet. My collection includes lots of shows that wouldn't have been otherwise recorded. And of the dozens of shows that I've mastered with them, and the hundreds of B&P's and trades involving them, no one has ever written back after receiving their copy and said "Hey could you please refrain from recording bands with AKG c-3000 mics? They really sound bad!" Hundreds of sources? I doubt it. I've never seen a touring contingent of tapers following Grisman around. Based on seeing him at that venue before, I would estimate 2-5 sources would have been made. Get a life? Sorry I can't make a B&P offer, but I can't currently clone DATs, so I shouldn't offer CDs made from AKG c-3000 recordings! Sloan ============================== From: "Stanley Willey" Subject: RE: akg c-3000 recordings.. Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 17:37:28 -0700 Greetings DAT heads, AKG c-3000 are drum mics. They cannot produce any quality recordings unless they mixed ( via mixer ) with a omni, cardioid or figure eight pattern microphone. >>akg c-3000>v2>adc-20>hhb pdr1000>hhb 830> eac> cool edit pro> cdr I also cannot believe someone would attempt to fix a show that was taped with these microphones (ie, taking the show from a hhb to eac then editing in cool edit pro). Get a life. There has to be a hundred better sources out there. Furthermore, I hope this doesn't piss some of you guys off by my critique of the AKGc3000. I just have heard countless recording with these mics from over the years still have yet to hear anything worth trading. Peace, Stan ------------------------------ From: Jonathan Dombrow Subject: Anyone in LA area? Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:24:09 -0500 (CDT) Hi, Looking for someone in the Los Angeles area who's free the night of August 1st for an intimate club gig john ------------------------------ From: "Jeff Abolafia" Subject: Re: [tridead] Philip Chapman Lesh and Friends Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:40:33 -0400 Hey Now: Anyone going to be taping out at Phil & Friends Thursday 7/25. If so can I get a patch from someone?????? Thanks Jeff _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "James D. Kerr" Subject: ISO: Pink Floyd 07.09.94 R.F.K. Stadium, Washington, DC Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:42:00 -0400 Hi folks, I have an otherwise nice version of this show (Schoeps mk4>TCD-D10) that is marred by diginoise. I need a clean copy. Please e-mail if you can help. Lots to trade. Jim http://www.nimbusgroup.org/jktradelist.htm ------------------------------ From: "Chris Black" Subject: ISO Blue Heron Music Festival tapers Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:51:46 -0400 Just wondering if anyone taped at this festival. I have a friend who went and I'd like to surprise him with some outtakes. Thanks in advance, Chris in DC _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** To unsubscribe from this digest, please send email to dat-heads-unsubscribe@datheads.phish.net If your email address has changed, you may (optionally) send the message to dat-heads-unsubscribe-oldaddress=olddomain@datheads.phish.net and the old address will be removed. Problems or questions about a subscription should be addressed via these avenues and then if needed to dat-heads-owner@datheads.phish.net or postmaster@datheads.phish.net never the list itself You can submit a message for inclusion in the next digest via this address: Internet: dat-heads@datheads.phish.net Archives of DAT-Heads digests and related files are available on the DAT-Heads home page: http://www.solorb.com/dat-heads/ End of DAT-Heads Digest ******************************