DAT-heads Digest #403
Contents:
Seattle taper needed 7/28/02 (Mark Mayhle)
Re: Why not Digital out CD>digital input>HD? (Len Moskowitz)
RE: C3000 (Geoff Lynch)
Looking for...... (JAZZPUNKER@aol.com)
Re: Why not Digital out CD>digital input>HD? (Bob Ramstad)
EAC vs CD>SPDIF>HD, and resampling ("Jamie Lutch")
ISO Atlanta Rhythm Section (Eddie Woodward)
Off topic about 'Ticket BROKERS' ("Thomas Avallone")
TAPERS!! ISO STRANGEFOLK (magichatr9@juno.com)
RE: akg c-3000 recordings..
Anyone in LA area? (Jonathan Dombrow)
Re: [tridead] Philip Chapman Lesh and Friends ("Jeff Abolafia")
ISO: Pink Floyd 07.09.94 R.F.K. Stadium, Washington, DC ("James D. Kerr")
ISO Blue Heron Music Festival tapers ("Chris Black")
From: Mark Mayhle <mark@mayhle.com>
Subject: Seattle taper needed 7/28/02
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:09:48 -0500 (CDT)
I'm looking for someone to tape Bill Mallonee and the Trophy Wives
(formerly Vigilantes of Love) at the Tractor Tavern. Show is scheduled
for 9:30 and Bill is cool with all kinds of taping, audio and video,
including sbd assuming you can work it out with the sound guy (could be
easy or challenging at the Tractor, depending on who's working sound that
night). I'll cover your ticket, tape, gas, a couple beers, whatever.
I'll be at Down from the Mountain that night so can't attend or tape
myself. But I'll be seeing Bill a couple days before and can pave the way
with him if I know in advance who would be willing to tape.
Thanks very much,
--
Mark Mayhle
mark@mayhle.com
From: Len Moskowitz <moskowit@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Why not Digital out CD>digital input>HD?
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:30:39 -0400 (EDT)
Clancey <supton@erols.com> wrote:
> ...Then I thought, why not play the audio CDR
> on my CD player and take the optical out and feed it through my U2A into
> Cool Edit and slice it down with good old CDWAV? Would this not be
> preferable to my ripping from CDR>HD via EAC?
Just be sure that whatever you're using to transfer from the optical out
does it accurately, bit-for-bit.
"Winnie Olmer" <who@sover.net> wrote:
> ...why does some equipment not simply transfer bit for bit?
Some devices have driver or OS interaction problems. Some do sample
rate conversions even when it's not needed. Some have bandwidth
limitations on the data channel that they use.
Len Moskowitz Binaural StealthMics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
moskowit@core-sound.com Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912
From: Geoff Lynch <geofflynch@casablanca.tv>
Subject: RE: C3000
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:30:32 -0600
I don't know where you get off saying this. I had a pair for years
and made some pretty top notch recordings. They have Card and
hypercard settings, and the large diaphragm sounds great, especially
for the $$$. I have made about 50 Phish masters with them and many
others, running C3000>mv100>sbm-1>m1, so I don't know where you come
from.
my 2 cents....
Geoff
BWT: Anyone who wants to hear an obnoxiously good copy of something
with C3000's, drop me a line!
Out of curiosity Stanley, what do you run? Why don't you give me your
addy, I'll send you a disc, so you can bite your tongue!
From: "Stanley Willey" <stanley_w1967@msn.com>
Subject: RE: akg c-3000 recordings..
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 17:37:28 -0700
Greetings DAT heads,
AKG c-3000 are drum mics. They cannot produce any quality recordings unless
they mixed ( via mixer ) with a omni, cardioid or figure eight pattern
microphone.
>>akg c-3000>v2>adc-20>hhb pdr1000>hhb 830> eac> cool edit pro> cdr
I also cannot believe someone would attempt to fix a show that was taped
with these microphones (ie, taking the show from a hhb to eac then editing
in cool edit pro). Get a life. There has to be a hundred better sources out
there.
Furthermore, I hope this doesn't piss some of you guys off by my critique of
the AKGc3000. I just have heard countless recording with these mics from
over the years still have yet to hear anything worth trading.
Peace,
Stan
Geoff Lynch
Inside Sales Support
MacroSystem US
the digital video company
5485 Conestoga Court
Boulder, CO 80301
303.801.1027 direct line
303.440.5311 tel
303.440.5322 fax
www.casablanca.tv
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From: JAZZPUNKER@aol.com
Subject: Looking for......
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:43:24 EDT
Looking to trade for avant-garde, Zorn & related (masada, barkohkba, etc),
japanese noise/punk, free jazz and early/mid '80's hardcore on CDR.
Particularly interested in Nels Cline, Eugene Chadbourne, Ruins, Charlie
Hunter, GONG, Magma and Ozric Tentacles. Please email me if interested in
trading.
Many thanx!
Ray
http://members.aol.com/cdcollectr/main.html
From: Bob Ramstad <rramstad@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Why not Digital out CD>digital input>HD?
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:57:18 -0700
Clancey wrote:
> Hey, this is probably a really ignorant question, but I thought I
> would get the best input from the list...
Not to be harsh, but yes, this was a very ignorant question, answered
by many FAQs.
> In SHN trading it is generally accepted that introducing an EAC step
> is to be avoided at almost any cost. Then I thought, why not play the
> audio CDR on my CD player and take the optical out and feed it through
> my U2A into Cool Edit and slice it down with good old CDWAV? Would
> this not be preferable to my ripping from CDR>HD via EAC?
This is not preferable because it requires that every element in the
chain be bit exact -- the audio CD player, the U2A, and all elements
of your computer, including your burner. While in theory this is
possible, in practice, it's very rare. At the very least, you'll
never be able to get the track boundaries exactly right by hand.
On the other hand, EAC will reread the same part of the disc multiple
times to make sure that it has a bit exact copy of the contents. The
resulting WAV track by track files are an exact copy of the original
disc, guaranteed.
(The steps of compressing them to SHN and creating MD5 checksums just
make the files smaller and helps ensure that they are transmitted
correctly... they have nothing to do with EAC per se.)
Long story short, there's a whole hell of a lot more that can (and
will) go wrong with audio CD -> U2A -> Cool Edit -> CDWAV as opposed
to EAC -> WAV.
I might also mention that EAC depending on your hardware can extract
at 8x-12x as opposed to audio CD which runs at 1x i.e. I routinely
extract discs using EAC in 6 minutes or so. Between that and the time
saved by not having to use CDWAV to split tracks, and the fact that
EAC is going to result in bit exact copies every time... well, there's
just no comparison.
There's a great FAQ at etree.org regarding EAC>SHN, it's not
complicated... best way to get comfortable is to do it a few times and
prove to yourself that the SHN files you're generating can be unpacked
into files that match exactly the original disc. (I often compute MD5
checksums for the original WAV files as well as for the SHNs for that
exact reason.)
Hope this information helps!
-- Bob
From: "Jamie Lutch" <reconstruction@thegrid.net>
Subject: EAC vs CD>SPDIF>HD, and resampling
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:10:22 -0700
the main reason is that you are reverting your digital data back to capture
of straming data on a hard disk, which is commonly thought of as the most
problem-susceptible step in the transfer.
not to mention you are pulling digital data off the cd player on the fly, it
is using error correction
EAC is far superior to this method, as it is cda digital data>secure
extraction>wav digital data. secure extraction tells you about all errors
compare this to cda digital data>error
correction>spdif>hardware>software>hard drive
EAC is great for what it does, but there are several reasons people dont
like to get stuff seeded shn>cd>eac>shn:
1. 95% of all people using it dont configure the offsets correctly, so the
md5's of the resulting wavs wont match the original md5's. thuis a rogue
version of the show gets put into circulation, generally with very spotty
lineage. since most people dont like extra handling of their bits, they
dismiss these sources as 'bad'.
2. if your offsets are not set up correctly, you'll generate audible gaps at
the cd flips. thus continuous playback, a property inherent in properly done
shns, is lost. you are essntially 'dumbing down' the data to the
limtitations of the cd format.
3. even people who think that their burn/extract setups have the correct
offsets are kidding themselves, cause if that disk came from any other
setup, you can bet it has a different offset than what your burner creates.
you need to reconfigure your offset for that show, and the next show, and
the next show, etc.
The best rule of thumb is only to eac stuff that isnt available at all on
shn. and if you want to do it properly, use secure mode, extract it as whole
disks, restitch them seamlessly together in a wave editor, and shn them
without fades for cd flips. and be very very specific about the lineage in
your text file.
> From: Clancey <supton@erols.com>
> Subject: Why not Digital out CD>digital input>HD?
> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 17:45:06 -0400
>
>
> Hey, this is probably a really ignorant question, but I thought I would
get
> the best input from the list...
>
> In SHN trading it is generally accepted that introducing an EAC step is to
> be avoided at almost any cost. Then I thought, why not play the audio CDR
> on my CD player and take the optical out and feed it through my U2A into
> Cool Edit and slice it down with good old CDWAV? Would this not be
> preferable to my ripping from CDR>HD via EAC?
>
> It seems like such an elegantly simple solution that I feel there must be
> some reason I can't think of that it isn't in practice. I have a lot of
> shows on CDR that I would love to SHN, but hesitate because I don't feel
> comfortable doing EAC>SHN.
>
> I have asked this question elsewhere and have gotten responses that all
say
> I should take the EAC tutorial and I wouldn't need to do the CD player
> step, but nobody has said why it isn't kosher to simply convert the shows
> treating the CD player the same as when I go DAT>HD. Could someone please
> address the CD>HD issue for me?
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Winnie Olmer" <who@sover.net>
> Subject: bit for bit accuracy??? where do i learn more?
> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:32:52 -0400
>
> OK.. it's time for me to delve "deeper" into understanding digital music.
I
> soon hope to move to laptop recording and get away from high maintenance
and
> fragile DAT. Is there a good site that explains these concepts? For
> example..why does some equipment not simply transfer bit for bit? I
thought
> a main feature of being digital was the ability to make exact copies. As I
> am familiar with in computer files for example. So why does equipment
> resample?
its cheaper, and/or it pleases the music industry that would rather prevent
you from amking pure copies
>I was looking at starting of gradually with laptops and have been
> checking out the Edirol UA-D1 USB adapter ($99). The thought was I could
use
> my Denecke AD-20, PS2 and Oktava's with this setup. But I cant "quantify"
> how bad it may be to NOT be bit for bit accurate.
for example, the edirol ua5 resamples all digital inputs. does thsi
disqualify it as a useful device? not necessarily, as if you use it as a
D>A, you are not resampling, but sampling once. I would bet the ua5 sounds
at least as good as the adc20 for a da.
> Does it sound noticeably
> bad?
depends on the equipment. Theres a reason that apogee and benchmark stuff is
so expensive -stable clocks and superior ad algorithms. It would kind of
defeat the purpose of those to take a digipatch and then reclock it with the
edirol.
>What is the issue of this level of inaccuracy? Any info or links to a
> good tech site would be appreciated!!
you may or may not hear a difference, only your ears can tell.
From: Eddie Woodward <EWoodward@lva.lib.va.us>
Subject: ISO Atlanta Rhythm Section
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:06:03 -0400
Hello. Sorry to trouble the list. (As usual) I am looking for any Atlanta
Rhythm Section. Any help will be greatly appreciated! I have much to
trade. Again, sorry to trouble the list. Thanks!
Eddie
From: "Thomas Avallone" <tav2367@msn.com>
Subject: Off topic about 'Ticket BROKERS'
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 19:15:58 +0000
Sorry for being off topic here, but when I see this crap, I really get
pissed off.
Within 10 minutes of McCartney tickets going on PRE-sale through 'GetAccess'
($60 a year to be a member), I got my seats. As I was trying to search
through the net for a graphically detailed seating chart, I came across this
ticket brokers link:
http://www.ticketsnow.com/search/results.cfm?restart=yes&e=2031&v=1770&s=1&month=9&day=24&year=2002
I found this approximately 3 hours AFTER the presale started, and they
already have close to 40 tickets and counting !! HOW can they get away
with this ?????? Doesn't 'GetAccess' or 'Clear Channel Ent' even CARE
?????? These bastards are taking tickets away from the general public in
order for them to jack the price up 100-300%. It just BLOWS MY MIND how
'scaping' tickets are WRONG - but just because you have a license for
SCALPING, you can call yourself a BROKER and make it legal ?????
Gee - Since I own a SONY D100, and I am (so called) RENTING the seat at the
venue, does this mean I can call myself a 'Private Audio Operator' in order
for it to be OK with me stealthing shows ??????
BROKER my ass.....This is still SCALPING ! And I think its bullsh*t !!
Pissed off in Chicago,
Tom
"I've heard there's joy untold
Lays open like a road
In front of me"
~ PJ Harvey
http://www.tav2367.20m.com/
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From: magichatr9@juno.com
Subject: TAPERS!! ISO STRANGEFOLK
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 19:20:28 GMT
good day to all you tapers and traders out there!
Due to a change in Strangefolk's road management, there have been shows they played this summer that have not been recorded by the band for SF Archives. So now i approach all you wonderful souls in hopes that someone has Audience tapes, or better yet Soundboard tapes of Strangefolk's Summer tour dates listed below. i will definitely make it worth your while with either strangefolk to trade or anything from my extensive home library of CD/ DATs. any help or information leading to anyone who has tapes would be greatly appreciated.
6/7/02 Adirondack Music Festival, Lyonsdale, NY
7/15/02 Atlantic Connection, Martha's Vineyard
(pretty sure this one wasnt taped, but its worth a shot!)
7/17/02 Crowbar, State College, PA (co-bill w/Deep Bannana)
7/18/02 Agora Theatre, Cleveland, OH (co-bill w/Deep Bannana)
7/19/02 Club Laga, Pittsburgh, PA (co-bill w/Deep Bannana)
Take it Easy~
Ben Collette
Strangefolk Archives
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From: <sloansimpson@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: akg c-3000 recordings..
Reply-To: sloansimpson@mindspring.com
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:00:48 -0400
First, this post seems to have no OTHER purpose than to 'piss some of you guys
off'. The poster you attacked was not extolling the virtues of these mics; it
was a B&P offer made at the end of a worthwhile question to the list. The
irony here is that the B&P offer was extended as the customary
'Waste-Of_Bandwidth Tax' even though a question was asked that many people no
doubt found useful, and therefore not really a 'waste' of bandwidth. Your
post, on the other hand, contributed nothing, and didn't even include a
'waste-of-bandwidth' B&P offer.
As far as 'attempting' to fix the show, the original post noted that the music
itself wasn't touched. If you've seen DGQ at a place like the Variety
Playhouse, you'll know that it's not a very loud show and the audience
applause around the taper will be louder than all but the most intense peaks
of the performance.
As far as a claim the mics cannot produce 'any quality recordings', how
ridiculous. That's as silly as saying that any tape made from Schoeps (or B&K,
or insert your mic of choice here) will ALWAYS produce quality recordings.
I own a pair of 3000's. Am I satisfied with them? No. I want something
better. Do I use them? You bet. My collection includes lots of shows that
wouldn't have been otherwise recorded. And of the dozens of shows that I've
mastered with them, and the hundreds of B&P's and trades involving them, no
one has ever written back after receiving their copy and said "Hey could you
please refrain from recording bands with AKG c-3000 mics? They really sound
bad!"
Hundreds of sources? I doubt it. I've never seen a touring contingent of
tapers following Grisman around. Based on seeing him at that venue before, I
would estimate 2-5 sources would have been made.
Get a life?
Sorry I can't make a B&P offer, but I can't currently clone DATs, so I
shouldn't offer CDs made from AKG c-3000 recordings!
Sloan
==============================
From: "Stanley Willey" <stanley_w1967@msn.com>
Subject: RE: akg c-3000 recordings..
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 17:37:28 -0700
Greetings DAT heads,
AKG c-3000 are drum mics. They cannot produce any quality recordings unless
they mixed ( via mixer ) with a omni, cardioid or figure eight pattern
microphone.
>>akg c-3000>v2>adc-20>hhb pdr1000>hhb 830> eac> cool edit pro> cdr
I also cannot believe someone would attempt to fix a show that was taped
with these microphones (ie, taking the show from a hhb to eac then editing
in cool edit pro). Get a life. There has to be a hundred better sources out
there.
Furthermore, I hope this doesn't piss some of you guys off by my critique of
the AKGc3000. I just have heard countless recording with these mics from
over the years still have yet to hear anything worth trading.
Peace,
Stan
From: Jonathan Dombrow <jdombrow@uic.edu>
Subject: Anyone in LA area?
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:24:09 -0500 (CDT)
Hi,
Looking for someone in the Los Angeles area who's free the night of August
1st for an intimate club gig
john
From: "Jeff Abolafia" <jeff_abolafia@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [tridead] Philip Chapman Lesh and Friends
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:40:33 -0400
Hey Now:
Anyone going to be taping out at Phil & Friends Thursday 7/25. If so can I
get a patch from someone??????
Thanks
Jeff
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From: "James D. Kerr" <jkerr@nimbusgroup.org>
Subject: ISO: Pink Floyd 07.09.94 R.F.K. Stadium, Washington, DC
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:42:00 -0400
Hi folks, I have an otherwise nice version of this show (Schoeps
mk4>TCD-D10) that is marred by diginoise. I need a clean copy. Please
e-mail if you can help. Lots to trade.
Jim
http://www.nimbusgroup.org/jktradelist.htm
From: "Chris Black" <chris_melas01@hotmail.com>
Subject: ISO Blue Heron Music Festival tapers
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:51:46 -0400
Just wondering if anyone taped at this festival. I have a friend who went
and I'd like to surprise him with some outtakes.
Thanks in advance,
Chris in DC
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