DAT-heads Digest #405
Contents:
ISO: Tool @the Forum (Inglewood CA) (Gary Davis)
FS: Rolls PB224 Dual Phantom Power Supply (MBurgio@lightbridge.com)
ISO Tom Petty @ Nissan 7/17/02 (Andrew Myer)
Re: Why not Digital out CD>digital input>HD? (celticbro)
CLOSED - Extra Phish, WSP, Assorted Dats offer - CLOSED (DAVEDARC@aol.com)
Asymmetrical waveforms ("Matt")
Re: Ripping audio from CD>HD vs EAC (Mark McHarg)
Re: SPDIF / AES EBU Conversion / 96K (Mark McHarg)
ISO: Phish 9/28/95 San Diego ("Stanley Willey")
Re: Physical differences DPA 4060 4061 4062? (Len Moskowitz)
mini-me and limiting/compression-solution to loud audience recording? ("Winnie Olmer")
ISO: Wired Remote for Sony TCD-D8 (David Danek)
ISO PLQ 7-14-02 Jones Beach ("Daniel Carl")
FW: SPDIF / AES EBU Conversion / 96K ("Charles Quinn")
LITTLE FEAT (CCFLAMEWORKS@webtv.net)
Stealth Taping Advice Needed (Rbglea@aol.com)
Looking for Top Cat Trader (KindTaper@aol.com)
Re: Why not Digital out CD>digital input>HD? (Seth Breidbart)
Re: Asymmetrical waveforms (Seth Breidbart)
Re: Asymmetrical waveforms (David Carmean)
From: Gary Davis <gdavisloop@earthlink.net>
Subject: ISO: Tool @the Forum (Inglewood CA)
Reply-To: gdavisloop@earthlink.net
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 05:12:18 -0400
If anyone caught this show or a similar one, please write back!
I have a nice Tool @ Wiltern to trade.
thank you,
gdavisloop@earthlink.net
From: MBurgio@lightbridge.com
Subject: FS: Rolls PB224 Dual Phantom Power Supply
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:23:34 -0400
The phantom box is a dual channel supply that can run off two 9volts of
external power. Works wonderfully with no noise. Here is a link to the
specs page. http://www.rolls.com/data/pb224man.pdf
(1) Rolls PB-224 Dual Phantom Power Supply - $50 SHIPPED
Email me if interested.
Marco
From: Andrew Myer <andrew.myer@verizon.net>
Subject: ISO Tom Petty @ Nissan 7/17/02
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:38:41 -0400
Does any body have this?
I saw the soundman @ the board with a pair of shotguns spread about
90degrees.
I was in front of the board with a deck and no mics!
Anybody?
Thanks,
Andrew
From: celticbro <celticbro@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Why not Digital out CD>digital input>HD?
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 07:42:27 -0700 (PDT)
In DAT-Heads #402, Clancey wrote:
>
>
> Hey, this is probably a really ignorant question,
> but I thought I would get
> the best input from the list...
>
> In SHN trading it is generally accepted that
> introducing an EAC step is to
> be avoided at almost any cost. Then I thought, why
> not play the audio CDR
> on my CD player and take the optical out and feed it
> through my U2A into
> Cool Edit and slice it down with good old CDWAV?
> Would this not be
> preferable to my ripping from CDR>HD via EAC?
>
Personally, I've always ripped CDR>HD using CDRWin.
It's very easy to use, very straight-forward, and no
weird steps involved.
> It seems like such an elegantly simple solution that
> I feel there must be
> some reason I can't think of that it isn't in
> practice. I have a lot of
> shows on CDR that I would love to SHN, but hesitate
> because I don't feel
> comfortable doing EAC>SHN.
>
I have used this program for over a year now and it
works great. It is MKW Audio Compression Tool. It is
a BETA Version (ver 0.97), but it doesn't need to open
up a DOS window to access. Opens up in Windows, so
don't let the word "BETA" deceive you ;)
It's also Freeware. Just do a Google search for "MKW
Audio Compression" and go to the link.
What I would do is just rip the WAV files to your HD
like normal. Then SHIFT-drag those WAV files into the
MKW window and ***Voila!*** It is now encoding the
WAVs into SHNs. And it will be "lossless" too -
compression-free.
Conversely, it can also do SHN>WAV. Simply drag any
SHN files into the same window to decode them into
WAVs.
Just read the instructions in the box when you install
MKW Compression. If you say, JUST drop a WAV file in
the box, it will compress it into an MKW file. You
don't want that. You can also do CTRL-drop to encode
into MP3s, for all you MP3-player aficiandos out
there! MP3s, of course, usually will have a little
bit of compression.
Regarding the "digital" issue, I would think that this
whole transaction would BE digital, seeing it's
running straight through the computer and there is no
need for a digital sound card with a coax or optical
in.
That's my opinion anyway.
Hope this helps!
Peace out,
Celticbro
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From: DAVEDARC@aol.com
Subject: CLOSED - Extra Phish, WSP, Assorted Dats offer - CLOSED
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:57:52 EDT
Boy that was fast.
Thanks to all interested. Will post offers again in future as I do more
conversions.
Thanks,
Dave
From: "Matt" <matt@mattb.net>
Subject: Asymmetrical waveforms
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:05:22 -0600
I noticed something I've seen before on a recent recording I made with
my AT 933s (Sound Pro Premium with hyper caps). When I transfer it to my PC
and look at the waveform in CoolEdit 2000, the top side peaks hit a maximum
of about -6 dB while the bottoms are occasionally hitting 0 and are
consistently higher than the tops. The recording sounds pretty good, and I
have seen this before with these mics with the cardioid caps. The previous
recording was in a bad space with a low ceiling, and the mics were close to
the ceiling. I thought this might have been the cause. This last recording
(Los Lobos) was outdoors, FOB in a ORTF (sort of, I ran closer to 90 deg.
than 110) configuration with no obstructions.
Can anyone explain what causes this, what it is, and if I should be
concerned or do something to try and prevent it? My Oktavas haven't
exhibited this, so maybe it's just a trait of the ATs. The thing is, it
doesn't always do this so I figure it's something environmental. Thanks!
MattB
BWT: Los Lobos 4-12-02 LoDo Music Festival, Denver.
AT 933 (FOB)> SP Battery Box > M1 on DAT, CD-R, shn or even MD
if you want. It will take a couple of weeks to get it out because I'm
about to leave on vacation. I'll take the first few, if you don't hear back
you didn't make it.
PS - here's a little mp3 sample:
http://mattb.net/Sounds/ll_4-12-02_exerpt.mp3
From: Mark McHarg <frankophile@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: Ripping audio from CD>HD vs EAC
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:42:32 +0100
gdavisloop@earthlink.net wrote
>
> Copying audio from a CD disc through the CDR drive on a computer,
> whether using EAC or a "single-pass" program (such as CDRWIN), generally
> produces an excellent copy of the data onto your hard drive.
Depends on your drive. Plextor and other "accurate-stream" do indeed
give you the right answer almost every time. El-Cheapo drives often
don't.
> In cases where there is a slight error, it is generally in the
> least-significant-bit (ie, a sample of 12345 might change to 12346 or
> 12344), but these differences are not audible.
Well, I've never seen this and I've checked a lot of cloned CDRs for
data
accuracy. The most common error I see is dropped or repeated samples.
This can cause audible pops and clicks.
My first drive (an HP badged philips) used to drop or insert whole
sectors
at a time (588 samples). Other drives I've checked are prone to skewing
by a random numbers of samples.
> Playing a disc on a CD player through a digital output is simply another
> method of "single-pass" reading of the disc, and unless you have an
> extraordinary CD player, will probably produce results less exact than
> reading the disc though the computer drive.
This is probably true, although I've tested a couple of clones made by
meridian players -> HHB / other stand-alone audio CDR recorders. In all
four cases the clones were also correct, although setting the recorder
in "start-on-audio-signal" mode ends up cutting the front end off.
(1/10 second? - I can't remember).
One thing that helps is that audio players are optimised for reading
at 1x, which usually means heavy flywheels etc. PC drives are usually
optimised for reading data at high speed. With data CDs you can
tolerate small errors due to the error-correcting codes. However,
audio CDs use that extra 100MB for data so are more error-prone on
PC drives (except for drives designed specifically to read audio well).
Personally I think EAC is pretty damn good and I've never seen any
problems that weren't obvious when read twice and compared. This is
quicker with CRC checking rather that brute comparison.
I'll admit the possiblity of getting the same errors twice, but I've
never actually seen it. I think a lot of the etree/SHN paranoia
about this sort of thing is urban legand.
One thing I would point out is that using EAC in track mode leaves
you open to repeated/deleted samples at the track boundary if adjacent
tracks come out with slightly different offsets. I've definitely seen
this before. That's why I always do whole-disc extractions using the
Range or CD-Image function.
In general, the best thing you can do for data accuracy is use quality
CDs (Taiyo-Yuden / Mitsui / Kodak) and make sure they're clean before
cloning.
A lot of other brands are actually made by T-Y. I've seen a lot of
FUJI-80 CDs (made in japan) from T-Y in the last year. You can always
tell T-Y by the "frosted" centre hub.
- mark
From: Mark McHarg <frankophile@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: SPDIF / AES EBU Conversion / 96K
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:21:18 +0100
> From: Mathias Rombach <rombachm@gmx.de>
>
> An old 16-Bit AD-converter can not perform the whole dynamic range of
> about 96 dB that are theoretically possible with 16 bit. Thatīs due to
> its hardware-design.
This is known as ENOB (effective number of bits) and is typically 0.5 -
1.5
bits less than the specified number of bits. So a 16-bit converter
usually
has an ENOB between 14.5 and 15.5 bits.
It's due to the fact that the transistors / resistors / capacitors used
in
the circuit don't ever match exactly. Also there are linearity problems
even in the best circuits.
"How can you have half a bit?" you ask. It's calculated by measuring
the
maximum error of the converter relative to a perfect straight line.
This can then be mathematically converted to an equivalent number of
bits using a logarithm base 2.
For example, an ideal converter would have a maximum error of 1/2 of the
least significant bit. For a 16-bit converter that would be 1/2 of
one-over-two-to-the-power-of-16 = 1/131072 of the full range.
The ENOB in this ideal case is LOG2(131072/2) = 16.
By measuring the maximum error, one can take the LOG2 and find ENOB.
If the maximum error was actually a bit bigger than that, say 1/100000
of the full range, the ENOB = LOG2(100000/2) = 15.6 bits.
So yes, digitising with a 20-bit A>D with ENOB = 19 does allow you to
round down the result to 16-bits with a resultant ENOB very close to 16.
You would get a measurement error of 1/2 LSB of the 19-bit ENOB
(1/1048576) plus additional error from throwing away 3 bits (1/131072
theoretical 16-bit error as above) giving a total error of 1/116508
and a final ENOB of 15.83 bits.
Most modern audio D>A converters actually provide near-16-bit accuracy
by using 20-bit or even 24-bit converters internally. (Oversampling,
sigma-delta blah blah).
Pedantically yours,
Mark
From: "Stanley Willey" <stanley_w1967@msn.com>
Subject: ISO: Phish 9/28/95 San Diego
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:16:29 -0700
Greetings DAT-Heads,
I am searching for Phish 9/28/95 San Diego Summer Pops. I am hoping for a
Schoeps or a Neumann source if possible. I will entertain a copy done with
AKG's also.
I taped this show and had power problems intermittently throughout the show.
E-mail me for a list. I have alot to trade.
Thanks,
Stan
From: Len Moskowitz <moskowit@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Physical differences DPA 4060 4061 4062?
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:43:44 -0400 (EDT)
"Andy Liu" <dwonk@hotmail.com> wrote:
> How can you tell these models apart without plugging them in?
They have different color serial number labels.
Len Moskowitz Binaural StealthMics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
moskowit@core-sound.com Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912
From: "Winnie Olmer" <who@sover.net>
Subject: mini-me and limiting/compression-solution to loud audience recording?
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:57:03 -0400
from Apogee literature;
"The Mini-Me's Push-IT compressor limiter features three "soft knee" curves
that work in conjunction with Apogee's Soft Limit capability to provide
comprehensive compression, limiting and Soft Limit features."
There have been a number of postings looking for and describing solutions to
recording when your mics are at head level in a crowd and the crowd noise
forces you to set your levels lower than desired for the music. The dynamic
range between the music and the audience cheers and clapping is "wide". If
optimized for the music, the crowd outburst volume clips and destorts. So
your
forced to set levels lower than desired.
So since these features are built into the mini-me.. it
seems like a solution to my frequent audience..head height recording
problems. I am not familiar with this type of high end equipment and am only
now considering my next upgrade in equipment(budget). If I understand
correctly... when using cool edit or sound forge limiters/compressors.. they
not only bring the high levels down without clipping, but they also adjust
the entire wave file.. the quieter parts also.. in some way to balance the
effects of bringing down the loud portions. At least when I have used the
function.. it appears to change the entire wave file. Does a
limiter/compressor used while recording work differently? Will the limiter
compressor function on the mini-me solve the problem of wide dynamic range
audience recording and help prevent clipping during audience outbursts?
thanx
winnie
===========================
"Without love in the dream it will
never come true"-Garcia/Hunter
Winnie Olmer
mailto:who@sover.net
Trades: www.sover.net/~who/trades.htm
===========================
From: David Danek <hobbes4444@yahoo.com>
Subject: ISO: Wired Remote for Sony TCD-D8
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:28:48 -0700 (PDT)
Anybody have an unwanted wired remote for a Sony D8 or D100 that
they'll part with at a reasonable price? To me, Sony's list, $90, is
not reasonable. Thinking more in the $30-$40 range.
Thanks,
Dave
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com
From: "Daniel Carl" <ced@charter.net>
Subject: ISO PLQ 7-14-02 Jones Beach
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:17:56 -0400
i'm looking for this show for a friend (Reid Genauer) he
lived every deadheads dream and played with a member of
the dead (they did friend of the devil) if anyone can help
shot me a e-mail. i'll do a few B&P of Reid's GOTV set it
what turned Phil on him.
thanks
carl
From: "Charles Quinn" <cmquinn@mindspring.com>
Subject: FW: SPDIF / AES EBU Conversion / 96K
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:57:45 -0700
What you do know is that no microphones list a specification for greater
than 25 kHz. Mainly because there was nothing that could record higher
frequencies. With 96 kHz (smaller k is appropriate, not uppercase K)
manufacturer's may start listing this spec, as long as their mics look good.
If there specs are bad, I doubt they will tell us that, understanding that
they designed them to be good in the 60 kHz to 25 kHz range.
Chuck Quinn
=====Original Message=====
From: Mathias Rombach <rombachm@gmx.de>
Subject: SPDIF / AES EBU Conversion / 96K
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 23:18:14 +0200
BUT:
- When you record on a "normal" 16-Bit DAT tape itīs not worth to record
with 96 KHz, you can do it also with 48 KHz. I do not know any
microphone that has a range of more than about 25 KHz in frequency.
There are many amplifiers, sure ...
From: CCFLAMEWORKS@webtv.net
Subject: LITTLE FEAT
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 22:14:25 -0400 (EDT)
JUST RECORDED LITTLE FEAT FROM BOARD IN GREENFIELD MASS. ON SAT. AND WAS
WONDERING IF SOME ONE HAS THERE LAST SHOW FROM THE BOARD IN NORTH
HAMPTON MASS. AT THE IRON HORSE, LMK IF YOU CAN HELP ME !!!! THE SHOW
WAS IN 2000 I BELEIVE , THANKS CHRIS , AWSOME SHOW !!!!!
From: Rbglea@aol.com
Subject: Stealth Taping Advice Needed
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 22:16:37 EDT
Hi All,
Next week I plan on stealth taping the Who at MSG which will be my first time
taping. I'm looking for advice on how to sneak a Sony D8, Sonosax SX-M2, and
Neumann SKM-140's past security (especially the metal detector wands
prevalent at the Garden post 9/11).
I would be especially interested hearing from anyone that's taped "big" name
acts who have toured arena's the past 9 months (i.e., U2, McCartney, etc.)
and has successfully snuck in a good sized taping rig.
TIA,
Rob
From: KindTaper@aol.com
Subject: Looking for Top Cat Trader
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 23:20:44 -0400
I am posting this for a guy named Larry who is having trouble posting to dat-heads. His e-mail address is LMJ65@aol.com. Please e-mail him if you can help.
From LMJ65@aol.com:
"hi, i'm trying to find a trader, i have a saved .doc on my computer titled topcatraderlist.doc, any ideas of who the owner of this list is?, any help appreciated, i have no email, just the list, i got it somewhere, just don't remember where!, tks in advance, Larry"
From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Why not Digital out CD>digital input>HD?
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 23:57:17 -0400 (EDT)
> Personally, I've always ripped CDR>HD using CDRWin.
> It's very easy to use, very straight-forward, and no
> weird steps involved.
It's also less likely to provide correct results than EAC. How often
do you do it twice and compare the results?
> Regarding the "digital" issue, I would think that this
> whole transaction would BE digital, seeing it's
> running straight through the computer and there is no
> need for a digital sound card with a coax or optical
> in.
Not all cdr drives read audio that accurately.
Seth
From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Asymmetrical waveforms
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 00:00:04 -0400 (EDT)
> I noticed something I've seen before on a recent recording I made
> with my AT 933s (Sound Pro Premium with hyper caps). When I transfer
> it to my PC and look at the waveform in CoolEdit 2000, the top side
> peaks hit a maximum of about -6 dB while the bottoms are
> occasionally hitting 0 and are consistently higher than the tops.
My guess would be that you have a non-zero DC offset.
Seth
From: David Carmean <dlc@halibut.com>
Subject: Re: Asymmetrical waveforms
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:03:32 -0700
On Thu, Jul 25, 2002 at 12:00:04AM -0400, Seth Breidbart wrote:
> > I noticed something I've seen before on a recent recording I made
> > with my AT 933s (Sound Pro Premium with hyper caps). When I transfer
> > it to my PC and look at the waveform in CoolEdit 2000, the top side
> > peaks hit a maximum of about -6 dB while the bottoms are
> > occasionally hitting 0 and are consistently higher than the tops.
>
> My guess would be that you have a non-zero DC offset.
I've seen this with my Oktava MC-012s, I think both the omni and the
hyper capsules. Cool Edit calculated something like .002% offset.
I haven't figured it out yet.
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