DAT-heads Digest #442, Volume #6 Fri, 23 Aug 02 17:50:01 EDT Contents: ISO Springsteen Tacoma ("Paul Gibian") Lost digi-cable at Phx Jamgrass show 8/22 (Random Gnome Generator) RE: V2 & DDS drives ("Jamie Lutch") I.S.O. Flogging Molly and MXPX (Mexminute@aol.com) Tall Stands (Klay Anderson) Re: DAT data accuracy (Brendan Hoar) Re: DAT Drives for PC (Brendan Hoar) Re: DAT data accuracy (Brendan Hoar) Have you made any Mansfield MA shows (Greg) Tacoma 8/21 Video Trade & Stealth video taping ? (Frank Wong) Re: DAT data accuracy -> perfect CDR clones (Mark McHarg) ISO: Lenny Kravitz MTV unplugged unedited version (Gareth Gowan) Zefiro Inbox Notes ("DRider") Re: ISO: Ticket swap - Stone -> WHO ("jz") ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul Gibian" Subject: ISO Springsteen Tacoma Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 10:17:24 -0700 ISO Springsteen's Tacoma show for a friend. Lots of Dead and related bands for trade. Thanks. Paul "Our audience is like people who like licorice. Not everybody likes licorice, but the people who like licorice really like licorice." - Jerry Garcia, 1981 ------------------------------ From: Random Gnome Generator Subject: Lost digi-cable at Phx Jamgrass show 8/22 Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 10:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Last night at the Phoenix Jamgrass show the soundboard scene was a bit of a mess (major understatement), so I decided to pull my decks out and just get copies later. However, since somebody else was using one of my Oades digi-cables (the active one), I left it in the chain so I wouldn't disrupt anything. When I came back to the board right after the show it was gone. I'm hoping somebody inadvertantly took it with the rest of their gear. There's an address label on it, with my name and PO Box, and there were no extra digi-cables left, so PLEASE if you were there will you look at your gear and see if it's in there. Also, if anybody can help me out with who was in the chain I would appreciate it so I can contact people directly in case they are not on DAT-Heads or AZ-Tapers. Thanks in advance for the help. Cindy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamie Lutch" Subject: RE: V2 & DDS drives Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 10:56:18 -0700 > > Jim, > I run 140's > V2 > AD2K+ > > You should start @ 35 on the V2 and trim from there if you need. > Any more than half way on the trim you should go to 30 and start the > trim @ 0 (flat) again. > The Idea is to have the V2 blinking red. But you do not want full on > long red lights. > You may want to look into getting the 24 bit up grade for the SBM-1. > I have heard that the SBM-1 in line after the V2 can take away some > punch. But then again a DAT with no 20 or 24 bit conversion sounds kinda > thin to me. So Do a test w/ and w/out the SBM-1. keep in mind that the trim on the v2 should always start out full clockwise (as jason is describing, 0=flat=full clockwise). The trim is actually an attenuation stage, post-gain, post meters. So whenever you run the trim down, you are attenuating (up to 10dB) your just-amplified signal. Its better to turn your gain down a little, and not attenuate as much with the trim. Also realize that the gain adjustment will not show up on the v2 meters, you have to watch the levels on the a/d or DAT. the v2 red lights come on at +16db, 10 dB before the unit clips. So you still have plenty of headroom when youre in the red, but blinking red is best. How bout some discussion on HPF- where do you v2 users like to run the roll off (both settings and jumpers). I'm sure this will be very mic-dependent. > > ------------------------------ > > From: Mark McHarg > Subject: DAT data accuracy > Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 09:43:58 +0100 > So for those people who thumb their noses at how unreliable CDR cloning > is compared to DAT - think again. Just because there's no obvious > diginoise doesn't mean your clone is 100%. agreed- the only reliable way to know youre getting a good dat>soundcard>pc transfer is to invert two recorded wavs over one another, and even that only tells you errors in the current transfer. noise from previous gens wont show up. I had an sdt-9000 DDS drive that read DATS at 3X, so I would transfer every dat twice and invert them, I still ended up going back to dat>soundcard transfers to patch the spots that didnt error-correct on the DDS transfer. It seems to be quicker for me to double transfer my dats via soundcard and invert them. I get clean transfer with my r500 about 30-50% of the time, with the remainder being either small inaudible errors, or diginoise thats inherent on the tape. > Really you should take the EAC approach; read your DAT twice and compare > the data before writing the new tape. Ideally you should then read the > new tape and compare that against the source before sending it out in > trade - ha, like anybody is actually going to do that... dood, youre making me feel bad :) But honestly, its the only way I can send my dats out the door, after I've extracted every last usable bit. > > On the plus side, it is easy to find these errors when looking at the > waveform in an editor. You can pretty much be assured that the rest of > the data is bit-perfect unlike the output of a DAT deck's S/PDIF. yes, DDS errors tend to horrendously audible in the worst case, or really sharp spikes in the best case. an error-corrected dat stream of the same event is typically sub-audible (>50 dB down) > > I now have a Sony DDS-3 SDT-9000 that is audio capable and it seems to > > do alot better than the Seagate/Archive/Python line, but to my dismay, > > it is not any faster than those. It is great in that it does data > > backups of up to 24 gigs on a single DDS-3 (identical dimensions as > > our audio tapes) tapes and is great for archiving music. If you have 3 hours to archive and 3 hours to verify. Also shn'd, aped,flac'd music is art its limit of compression, so you can only get 12 GB on a tape, dollar for dollar, youd be much better with dvd-r, and its way faster. archiving/restoring with DDS is not so straightforward, the native MS software only will restore on the same machine. you need backup exec or some other real backup software to extract them on a different machine. Also keep in mind these tapes are designed for backup, not archiving. lose a few blocks on your audio dat no sweat, but lose a few blocks on a 1GB wav/ape/shn/flac file and typically youre whole file is hosed --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 8/2/2002 ------------------------------ From: Mexminute@aol.com Subject: I.S.O. Flogging Molly and MXPX Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 13:45:47 -0400 Hi Friends, I am on the hunt for any superior live recordings of Flogging Molly, or MXPX. If you have a chance to see either of these bands, they will blow you away. I've got 2,760 excellent quality entires on my list to trade....yes, I do count them! Please contact me at: livestuff@aol.com Thanks, Mitchell ------------------------------ From: Klay Anderson Subject: Tall Stands Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 12:36:08 -0600 From: Mac Subject: Tall (13ft+) Mic stand recommendations asked: >I'm finding myself in need of a tall mic stand (12-13ft or more), which I >am thinking to use with a 6-8 foot cross-bar for a pair of omni mics, Snip >Also, any comments on whether this sort of setup is viable? Issues of stability come to mind with two mics eight feet across and fifteen feet in the air. Standard Manfrotto (Bogen) items do not have the footprint nor mechanical integrity to deal with this kind of leverage. You should look into C stands with sandbags: http://www.matthewsgrip.com/asp/details.asp?item=339708 or Ultimate Support stands. Thanks! -- Regards, Klay Anderson, D.A.,Q.B.E. Klay Anderson Audio, Inc. http://www.klay.com 1.800.FOR.KLAY ------------------------------ From: Brendan Hoar Subject: Re: DAT data accuracy Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 15:17:31 -0400 (EDT) Mark McHarg wrote: > Slight change of topic from PC DAT drives, but > "Wayne D. Hoxsie Jr." wrote: > >> typical DAT deck has real-time error-correction and/or interpolation >> algorithms within its firmware whereas these DDS drives have audio as >> an afterthought and pretty much send the stream as it is on the tape. > > I first became worried about this when my D100 was dying and I did > some data checks. I would read the same stretch of tape twice D100 > > ZA2 > PC. I compared the wav files using EAC and it said there were > massive errors. > > When I looked at the files in cooledit, there was no obvious digi-noise > and it sounded OK, but the waveforms looked seriously different. > The D100 was clearly doing its best to fake the data, but it wasn't > anything like accurate. Cool stuff. This makes me even more comfortable with the dat2wav /errorcorrect functionality. -brendan ------------------------------ From: Brendan Hoar Subject: Re: DAT Drives for PC Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 15:20:11 -0400 (EDT) "Wayne D. Hoxsie Jr." wrote: > On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Marty Gulaian wrote: >> I adapted some tape-playing Visual Basic software I got from Joseph >> Gray and turned it into an audio extraction program for DAT drives and >> I see the same problems. I would like to retry reads on error frames >> but the drive doesn't seem to support any reread or read backwards >> commands. I think most of the errors would be repeated anyway - at >> least that's my experience with reading the same tape twice. > > Unfortunately, I don't know of any way to detect errors on these drives > (there is no error counter like on pro decks). The stream is just fed > from the tape as it is read. Hmmm. As I mentioned before, dat2wav is able to detect bad frame data, regardless of the setting of the /errorcorrect flag. According to the dat2wav 1.2 documentation, the bad frames are flagged by the drive and that's what the software uses to report which frames are bad (and know which frames need to sent through the error correction code if it is enabled). > On the plus side, it is easy to find these errors when looking at the > waveform in an editor. You can pretty much be assured that the rest > of the data is bit-perfect unlike the output of a DAT deck's S/PDIF. Man, I wish I had that much time...but I'd use it for other things. :) :) :) [...] > > Anyone know of any good > books on this sort of processing? Maybe Jim does? :) -brendan ------------------------------ From: Brendan Hoar Subject: Re: DAT data accuracy Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 15:21:02 -0400 (EDT) "Wayne D. Hoxsie Jr." wrote >On Fri, 23 Aug 2002, Mark McHarg wrote: >> Really you should take the EAC approach; read your DAT twice and >> compare >> the data before writing the new tape. Ideally you should then read the >> new tape and compare that against the source before sending it out in >> trade - ha, like anybody is actually going to do that... > > Hmmm. Maybe I'm a perfectionist, but *I* do that (sometimes, when I > feel there may be a problem). My experience has taught me that DAT has > pretty good fidelity. If you care to (and have time to) share, what process do you use, Wayne? -brendan ------------------------------ From: Greg Subject: Have you made any Mansfield MA shows Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 15:17:28 -0400 Hello - ISO any shows from this summer at Greatwoods in Mansfield MA. Please email off list. Thanks Greg ===== WWW Page http://tikcuf.com ===== ------------------------------ From: Frank Wong Subject: Tacoma 8/21 Video Trade & Stealth video taping ? Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 12:21:15 -0700 (PDT) I know this is not DAT specific, but I thought that DAT-heads people would know where to look. Is there an equivalent mailing list for stealth video taping at concerts ? I am looking for info. on how to do this more effectively. Anyone have experience doing DATs and video at the same time ? I wasn't very successful. I think I need some sort of stealth video setup. Hat mounted cameras or something like that. I know there are some people who get pretty good results, complete shows, withou being too shaky footage. I guess they are using tripods and hiding the cameras with something. I have a partial video of Springsteen, Tacoma 8/21/02, and would like to trade for other video and/or DAT audio from The Rising Tour. I can trade on VHS or VCD. Thanks, Frank Wong __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Mark McHarg Subject: Re: DAT data accuracy -> perfect CDR clones Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 20:46:13 +0100 "Wayne D. Hoxsie Jr." wrote: > > On Fri, 23 Aug 2002, Mark McHarg wrote: > > > Really you should take the EAC approach; read your DAT twice and compare > > the data before writing the new tape. Ideally you should then read the > > new tape and compare that against the source before sending it out in > > trade - ha, like anybody is actually going to do that... > > Hmmm. Maybe I'm a perfectionist, but *I* do that (sometimes, when I > feel there may be a problem). My experience has taught me that DAT has > pretty good fidelity. I did this three or four times too, when I got my new (used) D7. Yes, it was correct each time, but my conclusion was that it takes a lot more effort to be anal with a DAT clone than with a CDR clone. 1) Real-time (1x) extraction takes a lot more time 2) I had to post-process the wav file to remove the zeros at the beginning so EAC's compare function could line up the data. 3) I can't remember if EAC will compare 32 / 48kHz files yet, but at one point I had to fake the sample rate too. As an aside, I feel a lot better about the D7 in general because I don't think it has the fancy data-faking algorithms of the D100 so errors are a lot more obvious. I guess my main point was that none of our digital media are perfect, but if you want to make the effort, it's easier to have good data confidence using quality CDRs, a good drive and EAC. Quality DAT tapes and decks are usually pretty good too, but the data checking facilities are lacking. Of course if you really want to be data obsessed then you can do SHN/MD5. Assuming you don't mind having two copies of everything or all the palava of making audio copies each time you get in a new SHN show. Personally I just like to keep EAC CRC values for each disc I master. That allows me to easily verify each clone is bit-exact. If people in general were more aware af this data check and kept track of that all-important 8-character checksum then infinite perfect cloning would be possible. - mark ------------------------------ From: Gareth Gowan Subject: ISO: Lenny Kravitz MTV unplugged unedited version Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 13:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Hi, Im looking for Lennys unedited MTV unplugged set if someone can help me out with this show on dat/cd/video I would be very greatful. Please email me off the list at floss_luc@yahoo.com Thanks, Gareth __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "DRider" Subject: Zefiro Inbox Notes Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 17:46:37 -0400 A couple additional notes......... I think that I am using the same Radio Shack RCA>Mono 1/8" mini that Rob is using. It is gold and it has the 1/8" mini on one end and a female RCA on the other. It's pretty small and easy to lose, so I just keep it attached to my Canary Audio coax cable. Probably not a bad idea to buy 2 of them. I have not had good luck using an optical to 7-pin w/ my PCM-M1. Not sure what the problem was, but I had intermittent cuts all the way through my entire Warren Haynes Christmas Jam 2001 masters :( I used the optical to 7-pin because one of my friends forgot his 7-pin and I had a bunch of patchers. Experience is the best teacher! Normally, I give my optical out to the first minidisc patcher who comes prepared. It's amazing how may of you guys don't own an optical cable! I find that it's always good to give at least one patch at every show. You never know when a patcher might save your ass! Note: if you run a splitter from your mini plug, you could run into problems. Radio Shack and Monster Cable both make a 1/8" mini to RCA splitter. But remember, this is a passive splitter. If you run an M1 and a D8 wants a patch, your first reaction may be to reach for this splitter. I do NOT recommend this activity. Experience has taught me that if the patcher has 7-pin "cable issues" and I used this type of splitter, my masters ended up flawed. Whatever problem the patcher has get passed on to you. Not good! There are ways around this. Part of the reason that I bought a full rig and stopped being a patcher was because some tapers can be a bit lazy or uninformed when it comes to the M1....or.... If you are a patcher and own an M1, you know what I mean!! Sometimes, it does not matter how prepared you are w/ splitters and batteries or how early you get to the taper... You can still get screwed. Back to the point... Note: if you have an active 7-pin and an M1 coming out of your Zefiro Inbox and a D8 needs a patch, there are several options. I believe tapers should be prepared just like patchers. You can invest in an active splitter to come out of your Zefiro. Or if a DA-P1 (P1) needs a patch, you can put him in front of the D8, right out of your M1. This will give you the luxury of the P1's Margin Indicator. I never turn a P1 away! I have never had any issues running the P1 right out of my M1 w/ my Active Oade 7-pin and then running the chain from the P1. Another option besides investing in an active splitter is to buy a CO2 box. www.m-audio.com It runs on one 9-volt battery and you can get a complete show on one battery. I usually take the battery out during the set break. The CO2 can come out of your optical out on the Zefiro or from your active 7-pin out w/ a coax. Then you can give patches from the CO2. CO2 gives you an optical out and a coax out. There is a switch on the side to set to the source you are utilizing (coax "in" or optical "in"). If you buy a CO2, make certain that it comes w/ the 9-volt battery adapter. This item is crucial to running the CO2 in the field, but it does not normally come with it. Most places charge an extra $10 for this tiny little adapter. You could easily make one for yourself, if you are so inclined. As a final note, I carry an extra Canary Audio coax cable to come out of my Active Oade 7-pin splitter. Many patchers show up w/ "Monster Cable" RCA cables. Experience has taught me not to let a "Monster Cable" RCA plug ever come out of the Active Oade 7-pin. The center post on the "Monster Cable" RCA plug is a little larger in diameter and a little longer than most other RCA plugs. Once you use the "Monster Cable" RCA, you will always have to use it. Any other RCA plug will no longer fit *snugly* into the Active Oade RCA out and problems will ensue. My best analogy for this would be getting down to business w/ your lady friend right after she was just with John Holmes. Hope this helps some of you that are new to the Zefiro Inbox. On January 2, 2003 - Hampton Comes Alive! D-R ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > From: Robert Fisher > Subject: Re: Zefiro Inbox mini coax jack > Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 18:53:16 -0400 > > I use a Radio Shack RCA>Mono 1/8" miniplug...works fine. The adapter > that comes with a new Inbox is an actual coaxial cable with RCA on one > end and 1/8" on the other. The cable is so cheap that I wouldn't let my > worst enemy patch with it. I used the optical out for 2 years while I > was using minidisc and never had a single problem. You should never > have an optical cable bind with a diameter smaller than one inch. > > Good Luck, > Rob ------------------------------ From: "jz" Subject: Re: ISO: Ticket swap - Stone -> WHO Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 16:46:48 -0500 Sorry everyone, but I felt I had to respond here as Scott felt he needed to bring it to this forum. Yes, the *face* value on the Aragon/Roseland Stones tickets are $50. This does not take into count the assorted add on fees and the $95 Rolling Stones *fan club* fee that was paid. This brings the actual paid value up to $110 or so. Yes, the face value of the WHO ticket is $420 or so given the added fees. Believe me, before the offer was made, I asked several longtime members of a WHO mailing list as well as a Rolling Stones mailing list if this was an equitable trade in their eyes. While the actual face value is different, I wanted to know if it was acceptable to take into account "grey market value." This isn't exactly a matchbox 20 for a goo goo dolls at Jones Beach type of trade. These are not the Stones at Giants Stadium, these are small theatre shows. Everyone I spoke with said it was cool. If one does a search on ebay for any of the Stones club shows and the WHO HOB show, you will see comparable pricing among the tickets. I've not attempted to hide face value, have been forthcoming with those who ask for more information (CC has put many hoops to jump through for the Stones theatre shows) and I don't scalp tickets. Prior to my post, I read a post from a couple of Scott's taping buddies of his who are trying to sell a WHO HOB. I responded with my offer. They declined and I said thanks. They then sent me a "counterproposition:" "we're willing to give you a bit of a break on the price of the who ticket. so [name deleted] would send you the who ticket in return for - 1 of your stones aragon tix - 1 of your stones roseland tix, and - $180" I had to re-read this several times because to me it is much more of a trade imbalance. I declined and said thanks. Scott then contacted me about selling him the Roseland ticket. I told him I wasn't looking to sell - only a swap. Now this. Anyway, my apologies to everyone - hope I haven't offended anyone's sensibilities. I'll take 2 B&Ps for either a Who or Stones recording from my list. Cheers. José jzamudio@att.net ========== --- jzamudio@att.net wrote: looking to swap either 1 Rolling Stones Aragon Ballroom ticket (Chicago 9/16) OR 1 Rolling Stones Roseland ticket (NYC 9/30) for 1 WHO ticket to the HOB show in Chicago (9/23) - straight swap. --- end of quote --- so you're looking to trade a 50 dollar face value Stones ticket for a 400 dollar face value WHO ticket? there's a little bit of an imbalance in that "straight swap" scott ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** To unsubscribe from this digest, please send email to dat-heads-unsubscribe@datheads.phish.net If your email address has changed, you may (optionally) send the message to dat-heads-unsubscribe-oldaddress=olddomain@datheads.phish.net and the old address will be removed. 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