DAT-heads Digest #621, Volume #6 Sun, 26 Jan 03 17:50:00 EST Contents: VHS Vs. DAT / Analog Vs. Digital ("Dan Boardman") Re: Sony M1 vs. D100 (ISTEIN2@aol.com) ISO: Tom Mcrae, Richard Ashcroft, Haven UK ("Terry Singla") Help! Edirol UA-1D and TCD-D8 (Peter Aronson) audioslave ("alf") what's security like at Gaylord Entertainment Center (H Vargas) VHS Vs. DAT / Analog Vs. Digital (Comnaround@aol.com) Re: VHS Vs. DAT / Analog Vs. Digital (Joe Rioux) Re:VHS Vs. DAT / Analog Vs. Digital (Keith Bode) Re: DAT-heads Digest #620- VHS Vs. DAT / Analog Vs. Digital (acffh) Follow-up: Edirol UA-1D and TCD-D8 (Peter Aronson) VHS Vs. DAT / Analog Vs. Digital ("DRider") ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dan Boardman" Subject: VHS Vs. DAT / Analog Vs. Digital Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 10:11:53 -0500 Come on over to my house and I'll A>B an LP and CD of the same material - you tell me which sounds better - I'll wager you any amount you would like to bet that (if you have any kind of ear at all - maybe not considering you seem to only be listening to digital sources) - you will the majority of the time, pick the analog LP - don't get me wrong until digital came along I had all but given up trading cassettes because of the noise loss in copying. By the way LP production is on the increase not the decrease. Dan Boardman ------------------------------ From: ISTEIN2@aol.com Subject: Re: Sony M1 vs. D100 Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 12:19:06 EST Other than the fact that the D100 imprints SCMS coding on 1st generation digital clones, the M1 is identical in every other way. Except, of course, the color is black rather than metallic. If you already have an SCMS-free DAT deck, the D100 is fine as a playback deck. >>From: "Dark Star Enterprises" Subject: Sony M1 vs. D100 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 14:29:36 -0500 I am looking at getting another deck.....I know the main difference between the M1 and D100 is the use of SCMS but are there any other differences I should be made aware of? Thanks for the help>> ------------------------------ From: "Terry Singla" Subject: ISO: Tom Mcrae, Richard Ashcroft, Haven UK Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 17:57:32 +0000 Hey, I'm looking for any shows from Tom Mcrae, Richard Ashcroft and Haven UK that I don't have. I know that Tom had some gigs in late 2002, and will be starting up in the next week or so. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Terry www.hitmanscorner.com _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ From: Peter Aronson Subject: Help! Edirol UA-1D and TCD-D8 Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 12:20:15 -0600 Hello all, I'm hoping someone can help me -- does anyone have experience using a Sony TCD-D8 (or D7) with the Edirol UA-1D? I'm trying to feed audio into my Powerbook G4 (which has no analog audio inputs... don't get me started...) and I'm not getting any audio signal. Here's the setup: TCD-D8 --> Core Sound 7-pin-to-coax cable --> UA-1D --> Powerbook The computer is recognizing that the UA-1D is connected as a valid audio input source, but I'm not getting any signal. Is anyone else using this setup? Any words of wisdom? If I can't get this to work, I'm thinking of just buying an iMic so I can go from analog out to analog/USB in. Or maybe the M-Audio CO2 to convert like this: TCD-D8 --> Core Sound 7-pin-to-coax cable --> CO2 optical out --> UA-1D --> Powerbook Looking forward to hearing people's ideas. Thanks, Peter -- "Nobody believes the official spokesman... but everybody trusts an unidentified source." - Ron Nesen, press secretary to former U.S. President Gerald Ford ------------------------------ From: "alf" Subject: audioslave Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 19:33:38 +0100 I would like listen some HQ recordings of this group. Have a huge list where you can find something in trade. Alf ------------------------------ From: H Vargas Subject: what's security like at Gaylord Entertainment Center Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 10:34:57 -0800 (PST) if anyone has taped any shows at this venue recently, please email me off list about the security at this venue, e.g. are there any metal detectors, patdowns, etc. thanks! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Comnaround@aol.com Subject: VHS Vs. DAT / Analog Vs. Digital Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 15:08:10 EST A few things... I don't think anyone here was reminiscing about the good old days or the superiority of VHS and Beta HIFI over TODAY'S digital recordings. I'm not sure how this got started but I did state in my post that I preferred most of my EARLY HIFI masters over my EARLY DAT masters. This was like in 1991 through maybe 1993. Today's digital recordings sound so much more real than say a Casio DA 7 plugged right out of the soundboard in 1992. Isn't this as simple as the improved and affordable converters available today along with a greater base of knowledge on how important the actual A to D prosess really is? Anyone more knowledgeable want to speak up on this? As far as older HIFIs I have found them a bitch to convert if you can't get the tracking to match up exactly. At the time it seemed like the way to go. 6 hours of music or two shows on one tape for around 3-4 bucks Vs 7-8 bucks or more for a blank DAT. No flipping and superiority to cassette. When vinyl is done right and on a high end system there really is no comparison in my book. I can't afford that type of trip so I decided to invest in a Bell Canto DAC. Best investment I have ever made in my home stereo.Digital music has never sounded so good to me as it does now. One other thing. I know it's the Internet and people have a tendency to flame and argue and whatever. Maybe not here but I suppose I have been guilty in other places. From now on I am going to try and stay as kind as possible. The world really needs more of that all over the place. Even right here. My . 02 mark lynn From: "J R" Subject: VHS Vs. DAT / Analog Vs. Digital Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 11:53:51 -0500 Please, no lengthy debates of how some people prefer their humming, distorted, and lower quality sounding HiFi VHS tapes over today's superior DATs and CDRs. You are probably the same as those who say vinyl records sound "oh so way better than CDs. Their so warm and vibrant sounding" Yeah with all kinds of defects like scratches, pops and clicks that detract from the real sound and the enjoyment of the music. Those who prefer records over CDs grew up with listening to the pops and clicks and when they weren't there on CD, their songs just didn't sound the same anymore. CDs are made to make the music sound as it always should have. So you can hear like you were in the studio with the artist, without pops and clicks and humming noise. And as far as HiFi VCRs go, well they are on the way out. Just look at how many new and different kinds of home DVD recorders have hit the market in the past year. There are at least 5 times as many as the year before and at cheaper prices too. Plus DVDRs are also coming down in price. You know why, because Digital recording is superior to the analog recording devices. Even the movie theaters in the big city's are going with digital projectors instead of film. Give it up vinyl and HiFi fans, you're fighting a losing battle. You won't change the minds of those growing up in the digital age, things are just too clear and perfect. ------------------------------ From: Joe Rioux Subject: Re: VHS Vs. DAT / Analog Vs. Digital Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 15:16:59 -0500 > From: "J R" > > Please, no lengthy debates of how some people prefer their humming, Please, no opinions stated as fact. > distorted, and lower quality sounding HiFi VHS tapes over today's superior > DATs and CDRs. You are probably the same as those who say vinyl records > sound "oh so way better than CDs. Their so warm and vibrant sounding" Yeah > with all kinds of defects like scratches, pops and clicks that detract from > the real sound and the enjoyment of the music. Well that's your *opinion* because it's certainly not fact. Who are you to say what someone else should or will prefer? And as for "real" sound - I would argue that the full analog waveform reproduced on an LP is more close to the "real sound" than the sampled one on a CD (which is then pumped through noise shaping algorithms etc.). I think that you're mistaking clarity for quality. But then that's just my *opinion* and I'm sure you won't agree. So let's agree to disagree. ------------------------------ From: Keith Bode Subject: Re:VHS Vs. DAT / Analog Vs. Digital Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 12:36:55 -0800 > Please, no lengthy debates of how some people prefer their humming, > distorted, and lower quality sounding HiFi VHS tapes over today's > superior > DATs and CDRs. You are probably the same as those who say vinyl > records > sound "oh so way better than CDs. Their so warm and vibrant > sounding" Yeah > with all kinds of defects like scratches, pops and clicks that detract from > the real sound and the enjoyment of the music. Those who prefer records over CDs >grew up with listening to the pops and > clicks and when they weren't there on CD, >their songs just didn't sound the same anymore. CDs are made to make the music >sound as it always should have. So you can hear like you were in the studio with >the artist, without pops and clicks and humming noise. I just love posts that include a first sentence like this one, I don't know if I am alone in this, but it seems to me that this post starts out with "my opinin counts, and your's isn't worth hearing". As I understand it this is a discussion list, so if a topic is brought up, it's open for discussion. Personally, I'm not going to reply to a bunch of statistical data, nor argue much of what the original post stated. I agree VHS is going away, once DVD-R media become's more affordable. Perhaps it will take the development of less expensive DVD-RW media, somo peple recrod one show daily, or one show weekly, can record over and over on the same disc. Personally, I have a decent DVD player and only rent movies on DVD. The picture quality of the DVD is s much better than VHS. And when a DVD recorder come out that allows recording of Audio only, with selectable signals from 16/44.1 to 24/192, that will make a lot of equipment obsolete. Over the last year or so, I bought a decent turntable. I also have bought some very good condition used records. I did this after reading in numerous places about the sound quality of records over CD audio. Most of which is very pristine. There are also a number of companies that are relasing audiophile 180g records, most of which are re-releaes of previously released records. I picked up on eBay one record in virtually perfect condition, that I have had for a number of years. I put it on the turntable, and played it. The record is clean, no pops and scratches, and it sounded better than the CD to me. Many CD's have sound that is to crisp, IMO, s they don't sound natural. Listening to the CD's, the snares, cymbals and sometime lead guitar riffs of a given band have mor "bite" t them on CD that they do live. In the early to mid 80's, I had all of my records stolen. Virtually all of them had never been played on anything but a Technics SLD-202, a nice, reasonably priced, diect drive turntable, with a high-end AT cartrige, and never had more that 1.5g tracking force on them. When I started rebuilding my music collection I bought a few recrds, than bought a CD player around 86, and bought all CD's until some point last year. I don't believe a turntable and records is right for everyone. I do think there are people ho appreciate them, and notice, and appreciate what records have to offer. My purchases, when I make them, will still be predominantly in CD format. However there are people who enjoy older records, that don't have a lot of scratces and pops in them. I don't believe records are dead, or they ever will be. There is a demand, and posibly a growing demand, for records. They aren't and never will be the media of choice for the vast majority again. Yes, I started buying record's in the 60's, and completely wore out some records, and replaced them. I used to make cassette's of most of my CD's, as I didn't have a CD player in my truck. I played some of the tapes through my home stereo. It was not always easy to tell weter t was a cd or a tape. If that tape was copied, there would probably be hiss added, and it would be as clear as the surce. Not having used a portable recording rig, and being able to say that a DAT master sounds worlds better than a cassette master, I can't say that the master sound is hugely different. Whate analog duplication does do without quetion is add hiss and noise to each subsequent generation, which properly transferred digitl does not. Most of the recordings circulating prior to 88 or 89 were transferred from analog master to digital. And I think we are pretty happy with them. In other applications, like the movies, etc, I believe analog is dying fast. It's a matter of time, and other analog audio and video will be gone, and so will DAT. Keith -- If you love animals, check out www.wotwild.com. Contact me for sale through 2/10/03. Your kid's will love them. ------------------------------ From: acffh Subject: Re: DAT-heads Digest #620- VHS Vs. DAT / Analog Vs. Digital Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 14:49:12 -0600 OK, how about a short debate, or I'll just soapbox it. . . After listening to live tracks and playback from a 2-inch 24-track analog studer open-reel deck, all 16 bit digital audio sounded like tinny crap to me. It's truly hard to believe the loss of quality we are putting up with for the sake of convenience when we fail to use reel-to-reel tape decks to master shows. Sure, digital is crystal-controlled for speed accuracy, and has little-to-no surface noise, but it can sound very very cold and gritty compared to the real world, or even good analog tape. Analog does have a fatter sound, and if you can't hear it you're either deaf or closed-minded or simply have not had a proper A-B test.. There is undeniably some surface noise on Vinyl, but fast reel-to-reel tape doesn't have nearly the same problem, and NEITHER WOULD HI-FI VHS! The lower signal-to-noise ratio of analog may be evident between songs, but most rock and roll is mostly loud, not loud-to-soft like classical. Also, analog tape compression is a tool that can be used to shape sound by limiting dynamics of loud signals such as drums and bass. This reduction of peaks interferes with linearity but not with musicality. I am guilty of the convenience factor- I use DAT for field recording, but I'm not going to attempt to fool myself into thinking that I do it because it SOUNDS better. It does not. It is much lighter, and more reliable, and the media are WAY more compact. I do not wish to store 1000 open-reel tapes, but I have that many DATs. . . Oh yeah, digital is way more economical right now too. If I wanted to make a reference recording of speech or testimony I would surely use digital, but for something intended to be pleasing to the ear, I think musicality is a better gauge than accuracy. Although real-world constraints like time, money, space, environmental conditions, and so forth often make us choose the easy compromise, we must not delude ourselves into thinking that digital is something which it is not. Anyhow, flame away if I'm wrong, but if we differ in opinion, there's nothing I can do about that. thanks for reading. -tom PS- My comments are in regard to 16-bit 48KHz or 44.1KHz digital audio. I have not compared 96KHz or 192KHz to analog yet, so that may be the balm. .. now if we can get small, affordable field recording devices to sample that for us! (laptop world here I come!) Please, no lengthy debates of how some people prefer their humming, distorted, and lower quality sounding HiFi VHS tapes over today's superior DATs and CDRs. You are probably the same as those who say vinyl records sound "oh so way better than CDs. Their so warm and vibrant sounding" -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ From: Peter Aronson Subject: Follow-up: Edirol UA-1D and TCD-D8 Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 13:13:39 -0600 Never mind my previous message =8B I got my existing setup to work, more or less. It seems that the key was this: The DAT (TCD-D8) needed to be connected to the Edirol UA-1D *and playing audio* at the time I connected the UA-1D to the computer, and I can=B9t press stop =8B if I do, I lose the connection and have to disconnect the UA-1D and reconnect it with the audio playing. Strange setup... must be a Macintosh quirk. Peter ======== > I'm hoping someone can help me -- does anyone have experience using a Son= y > TCD-D8 (or D7) with the Edirol UA-1D? . . . ------------------------------ From: "DRider" Subject: VHS Vs. DAT / Analog Vs. Digital Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 17:19:25 -0500 JR - get a grip dude! you sound like the corporate execs that said DAT is Dead - years ago... that did not stop the production and sales of DAT machines for many years after.... and the very existence of this list..... come on! > Those who prefer records over CDs grew up with listening to the pops... that just it - we grew up looks like you still have some of your own growing up to do come on down to my Florida residence and I will prove you wrong in person your little rant here is like saying all CD players are the same and no one CD player sounds better than the other go to an audiophile shop and compare your CD player to a Meridian obviously you never heard some of the first CD's when they came out the vinyl sounded better and in many cases STILL does plus, there are STILL albums that came out that are STILL not available on CD plus, I'll bet you own some store bought CD's that were mastered directly from the vinyl and you don't even know it I think those pops and clicks are in your head because you obviously are some wookie that does not have a clue! sometimes it's sickening to see you wookies rant about something you don't know anything about D ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "J R" Subject: VHS Vs. DAT / Analog Vs. Digital Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 11:53:51 -0500 Please, no lengthy debates of how some people prefer their humming, distorted, and lower quality sounding HiFi VHS tapes over today's superior DATs and CDRs. You are probably the same as those who say vinyl records sound "oh so way better than CDs. Their so warm and vibrant sounding" Yeah with all kinds of defects like scratches, pops and clicks that detract from the real sound and the enjoyment of the music. Those who prefer records over CDs grew up with listening to the pops and clicks and when they weren't there on CD, their songs just didn't sound the same anymore. CDs are made to make the music sound as it always should have. So you can hear like you were in the studio with the artist, without pops and clicks and humming noise. And as far as HiFi VCRs go, well they are on the way out. Just look at how many new and different kinds of home DVD recorders have hit the market in the past year. There are at least 5 times as many as the year before and at cheaper prices too. Plus DVDRs are also coming down in price. You know why, because Digital recording is superior to the analog recording devices. Even the movie theaters in the big city's are going with digital projectors instead of film. Give it up vinyl and HiFi fans, you're fighting a losing battle. You won't change the minds of those growing up in the digital age, things are just too clear and perfect. ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** To unsubscribe from this digest, please send email to dat-heads-unsubscribe@datheads.phish.net If your email address has changed, you may (optionally) send the message to dat-heads-unsubscribe-oldaddress=olddomain@datheads.phish.net and the old address will be removed. 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