DAT-heads Digest #744
Contents:
re: Normalization (David Sadowski)
Richard Thompson Taping policy ("Gregory Morgan")
Re: For All You That Must Normalize..... (Jeff Lester)
Re: For All You That Must Normalize..... (Michael Edmonson)
recent Coachella/white stripes F/T (TRANEHEAD@aol.com)
ISO: WSP 4-13-03 Louisville Palace (Joshua)
Tascam DA-P1 w/Lunatec v2 battery setup options? ("Richard Russell")
Re: DAT-heads Digest #743 ("JASON BRANTLEY")
Re: Subject: For All You That Must Normalize..... (=?iso-8859-1?Q?G=FCnter_Wandtke?=)
Re: For All You That Must Normalize..... (Trevor Astrope)
ISO: Bill Frisell Recent Shows (Paul & Jen Beichert)
Still looking for Nada Surf US / Canandian tapers ("spnews")
Use IDE DVD Burner With Laptop? ("Onno J.R. Bakker")
Beyer MV100 or Sound Devices MP2 (Dirk Stelzer)
FS: AKG D-99c Binarual recording system (Nick Georges)
FS: Blank DDS 60m & 90m (Robert Gray)
FS: Beyer MV-100 Pre Amp (William Draper)
From: David Sadowski <dsadowski@ameritech.net>
Subject: re: Normalization
Reply-To: dsadowski@ameritech.net
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:35:41 -0500
I read the article and it really seems to be about how the author does
not like the way the new Rush album was mastered. It does not appear to
have much to do with live recording of shows using a DAT.
All successful recording involves some degree of reduction in the
dynamic range between the loudest sounds and the softest sounds. This
always creates some sort of compromise, but I believe it is absolutely
possible to make a successful recording that preserves the integrity of
the sound and creates the best possible listening experience. This
process will always involve some sort of limiting, normalization, and
compression.
I agree with the author that too much of this can degrade the listening
experience, since there becomes, essentially, little difference between
the loudest and softest sounds. This can be true on some records, but
it is even more of a problem on the radio, and one reason that listening
to rock radio tends to drive me crazy. They want radio broadcasts
nowadays to be at a constant volume level no matter what so you can set
the level in one place and leave it there. Excepting the commercials,
of course, which tend to be louder.
All of which has little to do with live recording. The rig I use
(PCM-M1) has, essentially, adjustable compression, and it is only
through trial and error that I have determined how much to use, and when
to use it. The same is true of the recordings I normalize using a wave
editor. When done properly, the result is a better recording and one
where the listener's attention is not drawn towards the overuse of
compression.
From: "Gregory Morgan" <cardinalchunder@hotmail.com>
Subject: Richard Thompson Taping policy
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:22:24 -0700
Richard Thompson does not allow taping under any circumstances. He is
strongly against it and has put out "official bootlegs" available at shows
to attempt to curb the desire to tape him. This doesn't stop it, it just
makes it harder.
Cheers,
Gregory, who taped Richard Thompson at the Filmore last Saturday and will do
the same next Saturday in Santa Cruz
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From: Jeff Lester <lester@trex.sp.trw.com>
Subject: Re: For All You That Must Normalize.....
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:48:38 -0700 (PDT)
Klay Anderson <klay@klay.com> forwarded:
>...here is a nice little article on a few aspects of CD mastering and
>marketing and why louder is not better:
>
>http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/articles/8A133F52D0FD71AB86256C2E0
>05DAF1C
Your subject header makes it seem like "normalizing" is a bad thing, hardly
the point of the article referenced:
"Why Be Normal?
The idea behind peak limiting of digital audio started simply enough. Before
people got the idea to use a peak limiter on their digital audio, the process
of normalizing was used. Normalizing is a strange word that simply means
"increase the volume of the signal by whatever amount is needed to bring the
highest peak up to 0 dB, full-scale. Normalizing audio during a CD transfer
is simply an easy way to get the audio as loud as it can be without changing
the dynamics whatsoever. From an audiophile point of view it is the proper
technique to get the hottest signal on CD with no distortion of the signal
at all."
The article is against peak limiting and compression, not normalizing. Now
I've heard some bad things about normalization, but it's not at all clear to
me what the problem is.
-Jeff Lester
From: Michael Edmonson <edmonson@sdf.lonestar.org>
Subject: Re: For All You That Must Normalize.....
Reply-To: edmonson@sdf.lonestar.org
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:52:55 +0000
> ...here is a nice little article on a few aspects of CD mastering and
> marketing and why louder is not better:
>
> http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/articles/8A133F52D0FD71AB86256C2E005DAF1C
That's a really good article, definitely a cautionary tale of what
happens when hard limiting is abused. However, I don't think it
should be taken as an indictment of normalization and proper use of
limiting to reclaim headroom. As the article points out, normalizing
simply "get(s) the audio as loud as it can be without changing the
dynamics whatsoever." And proper use of limiting "results in an
imperceptible change to a small number of peaks in the signal [so] the
whole signal can be made louder, sometimes considerably so." Just
because record companies have taken to mangling their releases with
overaggressive limiting doesn't mean it has ceased to be a useful
tool. If I see that a spike of feedback or loud applause is the only
thing preventing me from being able to substantially amplify my
recording, will I hesitate to use a hard limiter? Not for a second.
-Michael
From: TRANEHEAD@aol.com
Subject: recent Coachella/white stripes F/T
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 18:43:01 -0400
i have both nights from the warfield, coachella (plus Stooges,PRML SCRM, QOTSA, Beasties), boston bcast, masonic temple 16 apr. available for trade.
i'm looking for the show at hammerstein ballroom with loretta lynn as guest.
also looking for recent shows by the Kills.
thanks.
From: Joshua <sprung598@yahoo.com>
Subject: ISO: WSP 4-13-03 Louisville Palace
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:48:25 -0700 (PDT)
hey hey
Looking for the Tuesday night show from the Palace
last week, lots of goodies to trade...
BWT: I'll b&p 7-29-99 Doc Watson & Ricky Skaggs from
Rockygrass a couple years back.....
thanks!
-Josh
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From: "Richard Russell" <richarderussell@cox.net>
Subject: Tascam DA-P1 w/Lunatec v2 battery setup options?
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 18:16:39 -0500
Hi folks, is anyone using a single rechargeable battery setup to power both
a Tascam DA-P1 with a V2 (or some similar combo)? I'm currently using one
battery pack (D-cells) for the DA-P1 (7-1/2 volts) and a rechargeable lead
battery for the v2 (6 volts, i think). It ain't pretty, but it works. I'd
love to come up with a solution involving a single rechargeable battery.
Looking for ideas - I'm going to be doing some festival recording in a
month, so trying to scale back on the amount of gear I'm carrying... (The v2
has to have enough juice to be able to provide phantom power for several
hours.)
Thanks!
Richard
From: "JASON BRANTLEY" <jbboulder@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: DAT-heads Digest #743
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:44:25 -0600
Hey Klay,
I don't think the article was neccesarily saying that normailizing is bad,
it was just showing an inappropriate use of the function. Obviously, this
article is pointing out example is of what not to do, rather than stating
normalizing IS BAD. Assuming you have some headroom above your peak point,
I see no problem normalizing the .wav form. I normally will only normalize
to only 95-98% and only if there is real need for it. Like the article
states the problem arises when you apply limiters or compressors on your
peak points to gain more headroom. This is going to diminsh the overall
dynamic range of the .wav form and is typically not a good idea, although
I've found it helpful to compress or limit loud bursts of crowd noise in
order to gain headroom to bring the volume of the actual music up in
mastering live performance recordings occasionally.
P.S. I haven't heard that CD but just from looking at the pictures of the
.wav forms, it was obviously a total hack job. Whomever is to blame should
be sued IMO. Hard to believe something that badly mastered could come from
RUSH. Wow!
2 cents
JB
>
>From: Klay Anderson <klay@klay.com>
>Subject: For All You That Must Normalize.....
>Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 07:14:05 -0600
>
>...here is a nice little article on a few aspects of CD mastering and
>marketing and why louder is not better:
>
>http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/articles/8A133F52D0FD71AB86256C2E0
>05DAF1C
>
>Thanks!
>
>--
>Regards,
>
>Klay Anderson, D.A.,Q.B.E.
>Klay Anderson Audio, Inc.
>http://www.klay.com
>1.800.FOR.KLAY
>
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=FCnter_Wandtke?= <redgum1@bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: Subject: For All You That Must Normalize.....
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 09:42:08 +1000
Thank you for this link, very interesting article !
In Soundforge 4.0 it is possible to replicate the mistakes mentioned by
using the "Normalize using Average RSM Power" and setting the dB Level too
hot. It has the option to "Apply Dynamic Compression if clipping occurs".
This way of normalizing is actually very useful when processing the average
audience recording : The clapping is often double as loud as the music and
dynamically compressed clapping to my ears sounds not very different to
undistorted clapping. Before using this function I would spend hours to
manually reduce the volume of clapping peaks with the amplitude envelope
function !
I just did some experiments, using the "dynamic compression" for peaks and
normalizing to the maximum possible Average RSM Power level I was not able
to replicate the graphics in this article. When zooming in the graphics
looked nothing like the squarewaves depicted, but still looked nice and
round and sounded ok too. This article is from 2000, so maybe normalization
techniques in the meantime has come some way to make CDs sound loud and
still ok ? The Normalization process used on that Rush CD must have been a
particularly cheap and nasty one.
Here is what Soundforge Helpfiles got to say about the different ways of
dealing with clipping when normalizing to very loud levels:
If Clipping Occurs
These options allow you to choose how you want the Normalize function to
handle any clipping that could occurs as the sound file is processed when
using the RMS option.
Apply Dynamic Compression
With this option selected, any peaks that would clip are limited to below 0
dB using non-zero attack and release times to minimize distortion. In other
words, a time-varying gain is used to ensure that no hard clipping occurs.
This option is useful for getting very loud (it is common knowledge that
louder is better, right?), yet clear sound during the mastering process.
Also, you achieve best results when converting 16-bit audio to 8-bit or
other compressed formats if the audio has been maximized before the
conversions occur.
Normalize Peak Value to 0 dB
With this option selected, the selection's peak amplitude level is
normalized to 0 dB. This applies the maximum possible constant gain which
doesn't clip to the selection. Less gain is applied than would be necessary
to achieve the Normalize to RMS level.
Ignore (saturate)
With this option selected any sound data that would clip is allowed to clip.
This may not be a problem if the clipping samples are very short and
infrequent, but will sound horrendous if much clipping occurs.
Stop Processing
With this option selected any sound data that would clip cause the Normalize
function to stop processing and display a message to that effect.
From: Trevor Astrope <astrope@tabbweb.com>
Subject: Re: For All You That Must Normalize.....
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:51:16 -0400 (EDT)
Even Dark Side of the Moon isn't sacred. There's a Stereophile article
that shows how the cd layer of the 30th anniversary re-issue was put
through a peak limiter and has clipped samples...
http://www.stereophile.com/shownews.cgi?1649
Personally, I don't find anything wrong with normalizing if you don't clip
samples. Aggressive peak limiting is just evil. However, I've done it for
non-trader friends who ask me to do it, because louder is better to some
people and who am I to judge. They just end up ripping the songs to mp3
anyway.
Bwt, ftp access for Red Hot Chili Peppers 05/15/03 (AT933/C > D7) for the
first 3 people to email me.
From: Paul & Jen Beichert <pnjbeichert@earthlink.net>
Subject: ISO: Bill Frisell Recent Shows
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:44:26 -0400
Looking for any shows on the current Frisell Tour. Lots of HQ Frisell and
related to trade - please contact me if you've taped Bill lately.
Thanks -
Paul
From: "spnews" <spnews@fnac.net>
Subject: Still looking for Nada Surf US / Canandian tapers
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 07:51:26 +0200
Nada Surf are currently touring in the USA and Canada.
I'm looking for tapers of these shows. The band allow audience recording.
SBD recording may be possible as well if you talk to Matthew, the singer,
before the show.
Here are the tour dates :
5/21/2003: Dallas, TX - Gypsy Tea Room - 17+
5/22/2003: Little Rock, AR - Vinos
5/23/2003: Lawrence, KS - The Bottleneck
5/24/2003: Omaha, NE - Sokol Underground
5/25/2003: Minneapolis, MN - Ascot Room
5/27/2003: Columbus, OH - Little Brothers - 18+
5/28/2003: Detroit, MI - Shelter
5/29/2003: Toronto, Canada - Horseshoe Tavern
5/30/2003: Montreal - La Sala Rosa - 18+
5/31/2003: Ottowa - Babylon
6/1/2003: Quebec City - Kashmir
6/4/2003: Hoboken, NJ - Maxwells
6/5/2003: Brooklyn, NY - Southpaw
6/6/2003: Albany, NY - Valentines
Plenty to trade as well as as others bands (latests masters : Blur,
Calexico, Doves...)
From: "Onno J.R. Bakker" <onnosr@bakker.info>
Subject: Use IDE DVD Burner With Laptop?
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:49:11 +0200
The Pyro 1394 drive kit works wel with my (older) A03 pioneer burner (IDE)
on a pcmcia 1394 card in any laptop
Since the Vaio has built in 1394 you 'don't need that card.
http://www.adstech.com/products/PYRO1394DriveKit/intro/API800intro.asp?pid=A
PI-800
Onno
From: 520078325885-0001@t-online.de (Dirk Stelzer)
Subject: Beyer MV100 or Sound Devices MP2
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 13:03:20 +0200
Hey folks,
I'm planning to upgrade my taping rig, i currently own this stealth rig:
DPA 4061 > Line-in of mod.24 bit SBM-1 > TCD-D100. Which of these two preamps do
you guys rather recommend to use with this setup. I heard that the Beyer MV 100
and the mod.SBM-1 sound really great together but how about the MP2? Which of
these two sounds better with the DPAs? Both preamps are quite stealthable but
which one is smaller in size? Since the DPAs tend to produce a little too much
bass on recordings of metal/rock shows (actually they reproduce exactly what you
hear at the show) i'd like to attenuate the low frequencies a bit, so i'd need a
lowcut filter, i guess both preamps have one?
All info is appreciated
Dirk
From: Nick Georges <nick@nickspicks.com>
Subject: FS: AKG D-99c Binarual recording system
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 08:09:46 -0400
FS; AKG D99c "Harry" Binarual recording system.
this is a real binaural head that mounts on a mic stand (it has a
lighting mount thread size actualy).
phantom powered, XLR output. Very cool piece from the 70's I believe.
Not a lot of info out there, and even AKG is pretty clueless about it.
$200 shipped to your door.
From: Robert Gray <rob@tsivisuals.com>
Subject: FS: Blank DDS 60m & 90m
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 09:41:23 -0400
Howdy folks,
After cleaning out the closet in my home office I've had a chance to
take inventory and can now offer the following for sale:
104 Sony DG90P
65 Sony DG60P
19 Maxell HS-4/60s
That is 188 blank DDS DAT tape of varying length and manufacturer (see above).
I will be happy to let these go for $1.00/tape with *major*
preference given to the person who wants the whole bunch. I'll pay
shipping, too (!). According to my calculations that would come to
$188.00 (USPS Money Order or PayPal only). Good deal.
These tapes are sealed and boxed and have been sitting in my closet
for a few years now. I bought them from Jamey & Aaron at Masterpiece
AV way back when, and soon after I started migrating to CD-R. I have
no need for them now and want them to be used by someone.
Important: Please contact me off-list. No need to clog Dat Heads with
your replies to me.
BWT: 2 copies of Diana Krall 6/13/00 Bushnell Court, Hartford, CT
(sbd.-- my copy says DSB*>CD*) on 2 x CD-R (includes 4 track
soundcheck on disk 1). Also happy to trade this gem for more Diana
Krall sbds. or hi qual. auds on CD-R. I'll choose BWT winners
randomly after the next Digest hits and will contact only the winners.
Thanks for your patience.
Rob
From: William Draper <wedraper@eml.cc>
Subject: FS: Beyer MV-100 Pre Amp
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:00:37 -0400
in great shape. cosmetically flawless. looking for $300 (obo of course)
and i'll pay
for shipping. would like paypal payment if possible.
wed
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