DAT-heads Digest #833, Volume #6 Sat, 16 Aug 03 00:50:00 EDT Contents: Sammy Haggar and Montrose at Sac Valley Ampitheater (CC) Re: Analog Tape Transfer & Dolby Removal Question (Rich Mays) Security at PNC? ("Bound to Green") Re: Analog Tape Transfer & Dolby Removal Question (Mikkel Breiler) Re: Analog Tape Transfer & Dolby Removal Question (Dennis Bathory-Kitsz) Ravinia (Chicago) taper needed!! Free tix! (karatebabies) AVA: 2 Front Field seats Springsteen Pac Bell 8/16 (David Danek) ISO: Doyle Bramhall II Live ("Kenneth Dudzik") used M1 wanted ("Slipkid") ISO: Australian Tapers ("Karl") sp at853 flexmount for sale ("Jeff Fulton") ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CC Subject: Sammy Haggar and Montrose at Sac Valley Ampitheater Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:59:00 -0700 (PDT) Is anyone taping Sammy Haggar this Saturday at the Sac Valley Amphitheater? Apparently, the original Montrose has reformed for the first time in 30 years and will play on the bill in order to keep interest since Skynyrd has canceled. I'd love to set up a trade for both Sammy and Montrose due to the fact that I can't be there to tape. Contact me if you can help. Thanks ------------------------------ From: Rich Mays Subject: Re: Analog Tape Transfer & Dolby Removal Question Reply-To: richmays@comcast.net Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 03:28:19 -0400 > The question is : Is there anyway of deferring > the descision at the tape transfer stage and > removing (or not) the dolby in software > afterwards ? The real question is why you would want to defer it? Far better to properly decode now. Dolby-B amounts to closed-loop compansion on frequencies above 1kHz referenced to a record level of 185nW/m, which in ancient times was called "Ampex Operating Level". This defined 0vu. Properly done (and Hakamichi was one of the best in cassettes) one could reduce noise in that frequency band by about 10dB. On playback the circuitry would reduce the highs by the corresponding amount, thus reducing hiss in the bargain. Using CrO2 tape also offered more headroom and less tape hiss by utilizing more record bias current and a steeper slope on playback, which is the proper time to carry out these processes, if they were used during recording. It is probably best to go ahead transfer with the Dolby and CrO2 active-- you can apply any further EQ later. As for whether Dolby was used during recording, this is easy-- in between tunes when things are quiet, the transient noises (coughs and individual claps, etc) will seem to "pump" with the Dolby off. If it also does that with the Dolby ON, then the tape was recorded on a deck with the wrong reference level, and unless you can calibrate the playback level (which I think only the Advent external Dolby could do), then you cannot decode the tape properly. There is a rather significant reduction of hiss and upper frequency material) when Dolby is activated-- easy to say it's "taking out all the highs" when in fact it is only trying to remove the increased highs that were added during recording. That was the trick-- using a properly aligned machine with a 0vu flux level that was correct. If the record/play response curve was not fairly flat in the frequencies above 1kHz, then that error was doubled with Dolby-B. The importance of proper alignment cannot be over-emphasized, though, which is why the Dolby "warble tones" were so important to record at the head of tapes using the professional Dolby-A system. The consumer "B" unit from Advent could record a reference tone to insure proper playback level and thus correct decoding. The Revox A77 open reel machines that were equipped with Dolby-B could also do this. Ah, those were the days! If the record deck was not correctly aligned, though, not to worry-- the action of the Dolby-B circuitry (which essentially was increasing the record level of the material above 1kHz) lessened as the record level increased. At 0vu or above the circuitry did absolutely nothing (unlike dbx-- which used a 2:1 ratio and could cause nasty effects if used on a non-linear tape/deck combination). Considering the loudness level of the original concerts there is a high likelihood that the average record level is Ovu or above (where the Dolby added nothing). Bottom line: just follow Duke Ellington's advice: "If it sounds good, it IS good." Rich -- Rich Mays Sonare Recordings ------------------------------ From: "Bound to Green" Subject: Security at PNC? Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 06:48:11 -0400 Has anyone taped at the PNC Bank/Arts center in NJ before? I was just wondering what security is like at this venue (Tori Amos coming up next Friday). The same goes for Jones Beach, if anyone has been there as well. Give me a quick reply if you have the time. Thanks Keith _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ From: Mikkel Breiler Subject: Re: Analog Tape Transfer & Dolby Removal Question Reply-To: mibm@tiscali.dk Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 13:49:34 +0200 On Fri, 15 Aug 03 00:50:01 EDT, Digestifier = wrote: >At the moment I'm trying to get a pile of=20 >low gen tapes transferred onto my HD. These >are mainly 80's goth tapes - some aren't that >well cared for and its not known if dolby is >on them or not. > >Now I'm probably being a pedant here (ok, I am - >if the tapes are a bit ratty why worry ? quite) >The question is : Is there anyway of deferring=20 >the descision at the tape transfer stage and >removing (or not) the dolby in software >afterwards ?=20 Depends what the Dolby is,if is Dolby A you should simply apply an = equalizer for best allround results, if it is Dolby B, then I suggest you auditionthe tape = itself prior to sampling it. For my transfer of 100+ cassettes of inferior to = acceptable origin I use a DJ mixer which gives me 3 tone control, high, mid and low. You = could apply Dolby B if you think it has any Dolby then for 80s tapes it would be = Dolby B. If it sounds too convoluted you may find that it does not have Dolby. Otherwise what you do is either 1. Use a headset, and place high, mid and low knobs in neutral. Play the = tape verbatim, and set the volume to a comfortable level. Then notice when the noise = comes in and becomes dominant. At this point, you will turn the high down just an itsy= bitsy notch and listen, keep notching it down until you are comfortable with the = sound. At the point where it is bearable you can sample the tape. Using the equalizer in common apps, like CoolEdit like I use a lot, you = can then cut off the high notes if you find that a certain band has very dominant = hiss. 2. Another approach is to use the leader of the tape to learn (adaptive = filter in CoolEdit) what the noise is like, and then have the filter work on a part= of the music like 10 seconds. Audition that and see if removing all the learned = noise is nesecary or just removing the high area of the learned area. CoolEdit has two basic adaptive filters for this approach and the Noise = filter is the one that is the best, but the hiss removal is perhaps better suited for = some uniform constant noises than the other. The Noise filter will learn what the background is then subjtract that = from the music, Both of these filters behave like all other filters, they introduce = digital artefacts which are similar in sound to the 'watering' effect heard in low-bitrate = MP3 files. These filters are best at removing low sounds like hum, or turntable = noises. But if you play well with them you might be able to save a recording from = sounding no noisy that it puts the listener off. It is a balance act of removing just = enough so that it doesn't annoy that you can hear too much digital artefacts. After a gentle removel of noise you could perhaps gain a little high = again using a plug-in or if you have the ability to run it through a TC Finalizer+ I = heard that should be good too. I don't have one as it is expensive, so your milage = may vary. Note that you can't use a stereo headphone socket to sample from, the = fidelity from a headphone socket is not good. It wasalso meant to drive a headset not a = line input. Your best bet it to do this live while recording using a DJ mixer or = other mixer that allows for tinkering with the sound. Otherwise you can use most = equalizerfilters in software but it is going to be extra work involved. You will be sampling = anyway, and from a lot of tapes, so it is smart to have as clean and ready a sound to= work with once done sampling as possible. >I've looked around the web and found no=20 >plugin based software available to remove it, >because its proprietry I guess - although=20 >I have found a characteristic curve set for >it - its not a simple filter response.=20 Dolby does have a characteristic curve but Dolby C is the one not to mess= with, you will want to engange a proper Dolby C (or Dolby B and turn the high down = slightly like above) to have a good recording. The _Problem_ with Dolby C is that it works best when enggaged on the = very deck that applied it to the recording. >I'm using a Nakamichi BX300 to transfer the tapes >which is pretty good - just wondering if anybody >had found a removal technique in software before >I get into doing this.=20 Not as such as it is proprietary, even discussing the inner workings of = it is tangible lawsuit, which explains the absence of litterature on the = subject. -breiler ------------------------------ From: Dennis Bathory-Kitsz Subject: Re: Analog Tape Transfer & Dolby Removal Question Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 07:50:57 -0400 At 12:50 AM 8/15/03 EDT, Wayne Ellis wrote: >Now I'm probably being a pedant here (ok, I am - >if the tapes are a bit ratty why worry ? quite) >The question is : Is there anyway of deferring >the descision at the tape transfer stage and >removing (or not) the dolby in software >afterwards ? >I've looked around the web and found no >plugin based software available to remove it You're not alone. I asked around for this and the response was pretty much the same: 'have your tape recorder brought up to spec before transferring the tapes with the Dolby on'. Same for dbx (I and II). That's what I've done, but I'm still bothered by the idea that I couldn't find plug-ins. It would seem much more reliable than having both sides of the process tape-dependent. Even if there was a charge for the plug-in (if it weren't as much as those $900 surround encoders!), I would buy one. Anybody? Dennis ------------------------------ From: karatebabies Subject: Ravinia (Chicago) taper needed!! Free tix! Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 04:53:39 -0700 (PDT) I have 1 good seat for Sondheim's "Passion" at Ravinia, 8 pm on Sat 8/23/03. Face value for ticket is $80. Unfortunately I'm unable to attend the show, so I would like to send this ticket for anyone who may appreciate the show and send me a tape of it afterwards! Please let me know ASAP if you are interested! More info on the show can be found here: http://www.ravinia.org/box_office/event_detail.cfm?xid_show=28716730 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: David Danek Subject: AVA: 2 Front Field seats Springsteen Pac Bell 8/16 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Any stealthers out there lkg for a last minute pair of front floor, 1 section off center for Saturday night?? If so, please email me asap. Really prefer the seats get to a taper. Face value, of course. . . Dave __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "Kenneth Dudzik" Subject: ISO: Doyle Bramhall II Live Reply-To: Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:18:57 -0500 Hi, Did anyone happen to catch Doyle Bramhall II at his past shows in TX? July 14, 2003 ANTONE'S, Austin, TX. July 16, 2003 Houston, TX with the Dave Matthews Band July 18, 2003 Dallas, TX with the Dave Matthews Band July 19, 2003 Selma, TX with the Dave Matthews Band If anyone has a show, please contact me. I have many DBII shows to offer. Thanks, Ken http://thekenster7600.tripod.com/audios.html ------------------------------ From: "Slipkid" Subject: used M1 wanted Reply-To: "Slipkid" Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 17:43:40 -0400 a friend of mine asked me to post a "gear wanted" ad for him up here so..... he is looking to buy a sony M1; he is especially interested in one that already has the sonic studios "mod-2" power modification made his name is tom & you can reach him at this email address: blueyes@zoomnet.net thx! - jon - ------------------------------ From: "Karl" Subject: ISO: Australian Tapers Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 12:26:51 +1200 Hi, I'm flying over to Australia to record the Marilyn Manson Sydney and Newcastle concerts on DAT (D8>CSC). Is anyone else taping/filming? email me if you are ricies@ihug.co.nz Thanks -Karl www.mmbootlegs.8m.com ------------------------------ From: "Jeff Fulton" Subject: sp at853 flexmount for sale Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:56:24 -0400 SSIA, it's the large model. Comes with just the metal frame, no windscreens or mics. I've never used it, and it doesn't look like the person before me did either. First $8 gets it shipped to your door. it retails for $40. Jeff jf41918@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** To unsubscribe from this digest, please send email to dat-heads-unsubscribe@datheads.phish.net If your email address has changed, you may (optionally) send the message to dat-heads-unsubscribe-oldaddress=olddomain@datheads.phish.net and the old address will be removed. Problems or questions about a subscription should be addressed via these avenues and then if needed to dat-heads-owner@datheads.phish.net or postmaster@datheads.phish.net never the list itself You can submit a message for inclusion in the next digest via this address: Internet: dat-heads@datheads.phish.net Archives of DAT-Heads digests and related files are available on the DAT-Heads home page: http://www.solorb.com/dat-heads/ End of DAT-Heads Digest ******************************