DAT-heads Digest #947, Volume #6 Thu, 4 Dec 03 22:50:01 EST Contents: Re: packaging ("DCA") Re: Insufficient packaging ("DRider") re: "put 2 or 3 CDRs in the same sleeve" (trudatman@fourwalledworld.net) Re:Gimme a Break (Keith Bode) Question about USB digital capture devices (Keith Bode) Avoiding The Enemy ("Bob Griesel") ISO: Van Hagar ("Rich Gomes") Re: Insufficient packaging ("Slipkid") Little Feat Acoustic Duo on the road ("Chris Cafiero") ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DCA" Subject: Re: packaging Reply-To: "DCA" Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 18:45:03 -0500 >From: "American-Digital" >Subject: Re: Insufficient packaging >Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 11:47:47 -0500 >I thought I'd chime in on this thread. I am one of those guys that will >put 2 or 3 CDRs in the same sleeve and it has nothing to do with saving >$$$. I have access to huge pile of sleeves and saving a few pennies >isn't why I do this. For me, it is more convenient and makes more >sense. Whenever I get 2 or 3 discs in multiple sleeves I quickly pop >them into one. I like that better. I do not see how anyone could >explain to me how it is any different than how they come stacked on a >spindle. Okay, now they have been recorded on, so? Doesn't mean they >now scratch easier or whatever....... It absolutely does make a difference. Its a free country, but... Jamming two or more disks together will scratch them, that's what cases are made to prevent. Its different from a spool, in that on a spool, they have the center dowel going through the disks so they don't slide back and forth against each other, and are usually packed with foam on both sides, inside a cylinder, and are not made for mailing, only to be shipped in boxes (probably with more packing) to be stocked in stores. CDRs also seem to scratch easier than pressed CDs. The mfgr always says "never touch the recording surface, or place it face down on a hard surface" Sorry, but another CD is a hard surface. Especially knowing how mail is handled and sorted, if I got disks packed like you have described, the first thing I would do is transfer them to new disks - if they are readable. I am really surprised that you, of all people, who sell CD packing products would be against using them...kind of ironic isn't it? How is that so convenient to jam 2-3 disks into a sleve made for 1??? It takes 2 secs to pick up another sleeve and protect your time invested in making the disk, and the disks themselves. I don't know about you, but I would be ticked to invest my time, etc. into properly setting up a trade only to get 3 disks jammed into a sleeve or baggie, inside an envelope from the other party. Think about that. Also, much of the mail I get is crushed, bent, ripped, etc. My 0.02...use it to buy yourself another sleeve....cases were even free after rebate at Office Max last week. Dave ------------------------------ From: "DRider" Subject: Re: Insufficient packaging Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 19:06:25 -0500 I do not see how anyone could explain to me how it is any different than how they come stacked on a spindle. Okay, now they have been recorded on, so? Doesn't mean they now scratch easier or whatever. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Most people don't play catch w/ spindles of CD-R's. And spindles don't go through sorting machines at the post office like a padded shipper filled w/ discs either.... People do things there own way and that should be fine. Allow people to make their own mind up and if they send you stuff in a way that bothers you or it comes damaged (which in 15+ years of extensive trading has never happened to me) then don't trade with that person. Yes, it is that easy. Barking instructions on how YOU want things done or the RIGHT way to make a trade is nonsense. Flexibility and being easy to get along with gets you allot further in the trading circles than a ton of silly rules that make little or no difference. I understand people have important trading instructions (like media preference) but this is not one of them. Pick your battles wisely. Right on! Well said! Peace, D ------------------------------ From: trudatman@fourwalledworld.net Subject: re: "put 2 or 3 CDRs in the same sleeve" Date: 5 Dec 2003 00:35:50 -0000 "I .... put 2 or 3 CDRs in the same sleeve and it has nothing to do with saving $. I have access to huge pile of sleeves .... it is more convenient and makes more sense. Whenever I get 2 or 3 discs in multiple sleeves I quickly pop them into one. I like that better. I do not see how anyone could explain to me how it is any different than how they come stacked on a spindle .... Doesn't mean they now scratch easier" --- Wow. My friend, Mark, does the same thing. I have borrowed about 600 CDs from him, with the intention of copying each. I have so far copied about one hundred from him. Of those I didn't copy, half I didn't bother with because they were incomplete shows, the other half because they were damaged from this mistreatment. It is clearly different than a spindle. No dirt gets into a sealed spindle. Plus, notice the raised ring near the middle of most CDs... they keep the discs an immeasurable distance apart. This, plus the raised center of a CD case (ones, twos, threes and four disc, regular-sized cases), keeps the CDs from getting scratched. Your CD player may be sampling enough that you don't notice the loss, but I wont be trading with you. "Pick your battles wisely." --- Digital loss in the trading community is a battle that I'd rather more people cared about. -- ------------------------------ From: Keith Bode Subject: Re:Gimme a Break Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 16:51:26 -0800 > > >If you=20 >>> are not using a Plextor Ultraplex CD-ROM, you are introducing > > >errors=20 > > >>>>> every time you perform DAE. Your ROM isn't acurate enough >>> >>> >to=20 > > >>>>> be able to=20 >>>>> read that it made errors. That's not just my opinion. >>> >>> >>> >>>You say that any non-Plextor CD-ROM isn't accurate enough to >> >> >detect that = > > >>>errors occurred. If a track is read twice, and the same CRC >> >> >is found = > > >>>both times, are you saying that errors still occurred, even >> >> >though the = > > >>>exact same data must have been read in order to get those CRCs >> >> >to match? = > > >>>=20 >>> >>>I don't have a Plextor drive. EAC extracts from my CDs in "test >> >> >and = > > >>>copy" mode, and gives a 100% match on CRC numbers. Are you >> >> >saying that = > > >>>EAC is "lying" to me and faking the CRCs? >>> >> >> > >The easy way to logically get around this issue is: > >1. Start with a set of source .wav files - the datum. >2. Burn 'em to an audio CD-R. >3. Extract 'em with a non-Plextor drive, using a properly configured >EAC setup, including read offset. >4. Compare CRCs (or use a SHN tool to make SHN versions and >MD5 sigs) from the source files and the extracted files. > >This gives you a valid basis for comparison, because the source >files are known quantities. If you don't understand this, or >haven't been able to figure the process out yourself, . . . > >I've done this numerous times, with Phillips, H-P and Sony drives, >and unless there's something physically wrong with the disc, >I've always been able to obtain bit-perfect reads. > >Yes, Plextors are *less likely* to produce read errors (and I >run a Plextor 40/12/40), but to say that anything BUT a Plextor >WILL produce errors is just plain, and demonstrably, wrong. > >da9ve > A couple of years ago I was researching this subject on the net. I stumbled upon a study done of various CD-ROM drives, and found a study by a testing group with far more accurate test equipment than any of us likely have access to. This was the cnclusion of that study. It had a chart of various CD and DVD-ROM's used for DAE with EAC, in copy and test mode. The results of that study was that some drives produced "millions of bit error's" on a single extraction. Only 2 drives produced 0 errors. The 2 Ultraplex models. Poke around and find the studies, instead of throwing any version of logic around. The EAC site tells everyone to use Plextor's. The guy is giving away sotware he works his ass off on, we believe everything on the site, except to use Plextor's for perfect results. Keith ------------------------------ From: Keith Bode Subject: Question about USB digital capture devices Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 17:00:43 -0800 > > >I was looking at getting a new digital sound card, when I started looking at the Egosys U24 or the M-Audio Audiophile USB. I thought the convenience of being able to take these anywhere with me without having to tear apart my computer would be great. > >All I would mostly use it for, would be to transfer DAT's to the hard drive. > I used to have an Ego Sys U2A, the predecessor to the U24. It was very handy, and in a steel case. It also has A>D, D>A capability. I've transferred DAT and Cassette to my HD using it. It's a simple to install and use device. I also built a system for someone wh wanted to transfer their cassettes and records to CD. I included a U24. As far as I know, they are happy. Pesonally, I upgraded to a Delta Dio 2496 and an ART DI/O digital converter. That is a nice set. If you want bit for bit accuracy, AFAIK, the U24 will not get it. If you want it to sound right, it's fine. Keith > > ------------------------------ From: "Bob Griesel" Subject: Avoiding The Enemy Reply-To: Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 17:58:18 -0800 Regarding multiple discs in the same sleeve: Please remember that CDs on a spindle have been packed in VERY clean conditions. The CDs you stuff into a sleeve have been exposed to dust and dirt including potentially abrasive particles. These particles are the enemy when they rub around between discs in a sleeve. None of us live in the kind of super clean environment that is used to manufacture and pack blank CDRs. Please - just pack the darn things right! The music is much more important than a few pennies worth of postage or materials, or a few seconds of convenience. Thanks for listening Bro' Bob ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` "People need celebration in their life. We need magic. And bliss. . . its a part of the basic human experience. . ." Jerry Garcia, 1989 > -----Original Message----- > From: DRider [mailto:Farflung@comcast.net] > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 4:06 PM > To: dat > Subject: Re: Insufficient packaging > > > > I do not see how anyone could explain to me how it is any different than > how they come stacked on a spindle. Okay, now they have been recorded > on, so? Doesn't mean they now scratch easier or whatever. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Most people don't play catch w/ spindles of CD-R's. And spindles don't > go through sorting machines at the post office like a padded shipper > filled w/ discs either.... > > > People do things there own way and that should be fine. Allow people to > make their own mind up and if they send you stuff in a way that bothers > you or it comes damaged (which in 15+ years of extensive trading has > never happened to me) then don't trade with that person. Yes, it is > that easy. Barking instructions on how YOU want things done or the > RIGHT way to make a trade is nonsense. Flexibility and being easy to > get along with gets you allot further in the trading circles than a ton > of silly rules that make little or no difference. I understand people > have important trading instructions (like media preference) but this is > not one of them. Pick your battles wisely. > > Right on! Well said! > > Peace, > > D > > ------------------------------ From: "Rich Gomes" Subject: ISO: Van Hagar Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 20:58:17 -0500 With the rumours of a Van Halen\Sammy Hagar reunion growing, I am feeling a little nostalgic for a Van Halen show I was at. Does anyone have a good copy of the following show from the OU812 tour: Providence Civic Center, Providence, RI 10/17/88. I'll take other shows from this tour but it would be great to have this one. Have plenty to offer in trade. Thanks, Rich The price of greatness is responsibility. - Sir Winston Churchill ------------------------------ From: "Slipkid" Subject: Re: Insufficient packaging Reply-To: "Slipkid" Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:33:28 -0500 dan wrote: > I thought I'd chime in on this thread. I am one of those guys that will > put 2 or 3 CDRs in the same sleeve and it has nothing to do with saving > $$$. I have access to huge pile of sleeves and saving a few pennies > isn't why I do this. For me, it is more convenient and makes more > sense. Whenever I get 2 or 3 discs in multiple sleeves I quickly pop > them into one. I like that better. I do not see how anyone could > explain to me how it is any different than how they come stacked on a > spindle. Okay, now they have been recorded on, so? Doesn't mean they > now scratch easier or whatever. this is a major pet peeve of mine so i will try to explain this as far as TRADING goes (not storing your own, which of course you should do whatever you feel works best, whether that is cramming 50 into the same sleeve or whatever) in the summer, about 90% of the time that i get discs in the mail that are stuffed together either top to top, bottom to bottom, or top to bottom, in the same sleeve, they arrive STUCK TOGETHER AND TOTALLY RUINED...i believe this to be something about the heat "softening" the discs & causing a chemical reaction IF they are touching btw, for some reason this seems to happen most frequently with discs touching TOP to TOP, rather than top to bottom like in a spindle, or bottom to bottom, but most people that do this seem to put them touching top to top, i guess thinking they are "protecting" them (?) the silver generic top t-y's seem to be especially prone to this problem my mailbox is in a cluster of boxes that serve our whole street and the whole thing sits there broiling away in the sun all day turning it into an EZ BAKE oven, which i think has alot to do with the problem, but i've also seen this happen even when i get the packages straight from the mailman's hand b4 it even gets left in the box - during the hot summer months i guess the trucks, post offices, etc get pretty sweltering too!!! even in the wintertime i also see this happening on occasion, discs getting stuck together in transit - and also because of the jostling packages get, i see some discs scratched up pretty bad packaged like this i personally don't see the need for using a seperate inner envelope for each disc when mailing them but don't see anything wrong with that; i have found to get around the stuck-together or scratching problems all you have to do is just put a piece of paper to seperate the discs inside the inner sleeves that you're using; as long as they don't touch, the surfaces don't turn to goo & melt, but when they are touching you can get OREO CD-R SANDWHICH CITY! > People do things there own way and that should be fine. Allow people to > make their own mind up and if they send you stuff in a way that bothers > you or it comes damaged (which in 15+ years of extensive trading has > never happened to me) then don't trade with that person. Yes, it is > that easy. Barking instructions on how YOU want things done or the > RIGHT way to make a trade is nonsense. Flexibility and being easy to > get along with gets you allot further in the trading circles than a ton > of silly rules that make little or no difference. I understand people > have important trading instructions (like media preference) but this is > not one of them. Pick your battles wisely. well here's my worthless opinion on this - if you contact someone for a trade you should make an attempt to respect their wishes and abide by their guidelines, no matter what they are if you don't like their rules, then don't bother to waste their time in the first place, don't disrespect them & make yourself out to be a jerk by asking for a trade yet expecting them to disregard their own tried & true practices, which they have their own reasons for following, whether you understand them or not but unfortunately more often than not, people either don't even bother to read the other person's guidelines in the first place or just decide it is easier to ignore them after they read them i swear this must be the thought process of 80% of the people that contact me & expect me to trade with them: "use seperate envelopes? nah i'll just cram 'em together like i always do, what? burn in DAO? i don't care about discs with gaps neither should anybody else, what? use "good" media? who cares, these KMART-AUDIO discs are fine, what? don't label the discs? i'll write on them with my lucky pencil they won't mind, what? don't put sticky labels on them? i always do that, screw them, so they might pull off part of the top big deal, what? use EAC for best chance of getting good copies????? nah, i'll just use what came with my PC, i never heard of that & don't want to learn anything new either, what? use an inner bag if mailing with a dust-lined jiffy package? why should i care if that nasty crap gets all over their discs or tapes when the bag invariably breaks in transit?? what? don't copy as mp3s? my software is set that way on purpose! i'm not going to change that just for this picky loser, he'll send me what i want & that's all that is important" not that anybody on datheads acts like that of course! - jon - ------------------------------ From: "Chris Cafiero" Subject: Little Feat Acoustic Duo on the road Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:51:27 -0500 I'm looking for help from tapers, sbd or aud, who can tape any of these shows. The guitarists(Paul Barrere and Fred Tackett) of Little Feat will play acoustic duo performances on the following dates. Please contact me if you are available to tape. Paul and Fred on the road!!!!!! Mon 12/08/03 Seattle, WA The Triple Door Tue 12/09/03 Seattle, WA The Triple Door Fri 12/12/03 Carmel Valley, CA Hidden Valley Music Ctr. Thu 01/08/04 Fort Smith, AR Media Center Fri 01/09/04 Buffalo, NY The Tralf Music Hall Sat 01/10/04 Rochester, NY Milestones Sun 01/11/04 Woodstock, NY Colony Cafe Wed 01/14/04 New York, NY Lion's Den Thu 01/15/04 Paramus, NJ Paramus Picture Show Fri 01/16/04 Bryn Mawr, PA The Point Sat 01/17/04 Falls Church, VA State Theatre Sun 01/18/04 Stanhope, NJ Stanhope House Dates w/ web sites available here: http://www.paulandfred.com/tourdates.htm Taping Policy available here: http://www.paulandfred.com/taping.htm Chris ========================================================================= Featbase..... www.featbase.net Highway 95 Tape Tree... www.highway95.net Little Feat.... www.littlefeat.net ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** To unsubscribe from this digest, please send email to dat-heads-unsubscribe@datheads.phish.net If your email address has changed, you may (optionally) send the message to dat-heads-unsubscribe-oldaddress=olddomain@datheads.phish.net and the old address will be removed. 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