DAT-heads Digest #948, Volume #6 Fri, 5 Dec 03 14:50:01 EST Contents: to answer AM Dig's question about a spindle vs' a bag or envelope (Schwigiddy) sharpies and disc archiving... (Nick Zuccaro) CDR top coat durability & storage correlation (Benjamin Cho) Multiple CDR in one sleeve (Benjamin Cho) Re: Multiple CDR in one sleeve (Seth Breidbart) Re: "Put 2 or 3 CDRs in the same sleeve" (ISTEIN2@aol.com) mbho 603a/ka200n's (active set) ("Joseph Waldron") Seeking - Malkmus and the JICKS (tesla69@threelobed.com) 90m data tape (tom groff) RE:Packaging - an easy way to save sleeves and pack them in. (jcarvalh) Re: 90m data tape (Seth Breidbart) re: "put 2 or 3 CDRs in the same sleeve" ("Steve Sanford") Re: 90m data tape ("Wayne D. Hoxsie Jr.") ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Schwigiddy Subject: to answer AM Dig's question about a spindle vs' a bag or envelope Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 20:02:22 -0800 (PST) when CD's are on a spindle the yes they sit stacked on each other BUT, the center ring is thicker than the rest of the CD, when they are in a sleeve or in a bag stacked they are having pressure put on the sides and when they move in the sleeve, they WILL scratch. just don't be cheap. if you have the sleaves use them, if not use paper, or just wait and send when you have the sleeves. it's just being cheap and lazy, i send in sleeves or nothing at all, and trust me i don't have much money, it's called consideration. and funny how DAT-heads has been having the same posts about CDs for days now. hum , seems real off subject. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Nick Zuccaro Subject: sharpies and disc archiving... Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 20:06:37 -0800 (PST) hey there, i've been following the thread about sharpies on discs, a few people have mentioned their 2-3 year old discs are fine, but aren't your 2-3 year old photos fine too?? it's only after 20 years they start to yellow, from what i've read damage due to sharpies or other permanent markers takes 10-15-20 years to show up...it's an archiving thing in general. using only common sense, even if the marker does eat thru the disc if you write only on the inner ring you're safe. i'm really curious to see if it only takes 15 years for the first gen of cdr's to degrade, i guess that's when you get the payback for using expensive archival grade discs...a while back mitsui was claiming to have 110+ year discs, but under accelerated life testing...only time will tell about that....persistence of memory :) l8r...Nick __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Benjamin Cho Subject: CDR top coat durability & storage correlation Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 20:42:58 -0800 (PST) In reply to the following message: I believe that keeping discs in a case DEFINITELY reduces the chances of the reflective top coat flaking, since the top coat is not coming into physical contact with anything that could abrade it. Almost all of my TY silver unbranded (from 1999) that were kept in sleeves have exhibited flaking. The only ones that have survived were kept in jewel cases. So, storage was undoubtedly a factor in these discs failing on me. But I don't think I should have to store a disc in a jewel case in order to have it last. Take care! Ben ============================== From: "Ragan Todd" Subject: CD-R topcoats Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:11:23 +0000 I've read the recent posts about CD-R longevity and thought I was being careful. Now, I read that Mitsui and TY unbranded silvers may be as susceptible to failure? Any details? I'm relatively new to taping, so none of my DAT > CD-R masters are older than three years old. No flaking, yet. And I keep them in cases, not sleeves, so nothing touches the disc in case that may be a factor in failures. The company I work for makes small runs of proprietary software, and we have lots of masters from 98 and later on Mitsui unbranded silvers that have shown no signs of flaking. They're all in cases, too. Maybe your storage solution was your problem? ============================== __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Benjamin Cho Subject: Multiple CDR in one sleeve Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 21:20:01 -0800 (PST) Hey all- This is a fun discussion! One thing I am sure about is that putting multiple CDR's in the same sleeve increases the probability of scratches occurring. This is because in the case of multiple discs in one sleeve the disc surface is pressed in contact with a harder and flatter surface (as compared to the sleeve material). This will increase the likelyhood of scratches occurring if there is some particulate matter (dust, sand, etc) in the sleeve or on the discs. Think about it, for the case of one CD in a sleeve with some dust that has made its way into there. Since the sleeve is flexible and always has some small bends/wrinkles, there will not be full contact with the sleeve material and CD over the entire CD surface. Thus there will be some areas on the CD where the sleeve will not be rubbing the dust onto/into the disc. For the case of multiple CD's in a sleeve, since the CD's are flat and essentially nondeformable (as long as you are not actually trying to bend the CD) the entire surface area of the adjacent discs are in contact. Now if we have dust ANYWHERE between the discs we will get an abrasive action whenever the discs are moved relative to each other, giving us a higher chance to get scratches during handling. I think this is why some people ship their CDs placed with top coats in contact (at least this is why I do it on the occasions when I multi-pack. I admit it, I do this sometimes!!). Since the disc-disc contact area is where scratching is most likely to occur, putting the recorded area in contact with the sleeve material reduces the chance of scratches occurring on the more vulnerable data side of the disc. As a simple test, next time you go out to a show or wherever, put 2 sleeves in your pockets. One with just one CD, the other with 2 or more CD's. Jump around, dance, and have a good old time!! Then when you get home at the end of the night take a look at the CDs. I bet you will see that the multiple-packed discs have more scratches. At least that has been my personal experience. Now, for some perspective on the whole thing, for me the bottom line is that I really don't stress too much about getting multiple packed discs as long as they play/decode ok and are not scratched to shit. I realize everyone has different standards and might not see things the same way as I do. I think the best way to avoid this problem is good communication. When you work your trade, if multi-packing is a pet peeve of yours just let the other person know! Whaddya think?? Happy trading everyone!! :-) Ben __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Seth Breidbart Subject: Re: Multiple CDR in one sleeve Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 00:25:12 -0500 (EST) For those who care, plastic sandwich bags (available at any supermarket) hold CDs just fine. Seth ------------------------------ From: ISTEIN2@aol.com Subject: Re: "Put 2 or 3 CDRs in the same sleeve" Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 03:26:34 EST I'm really tired of some of you totally anal people telling me how I should package the CDR's I send you! First of all, the only time I offer up CD's is when I know I have an absolutely killer recording that most likely better quality than any others out there. I've been doing this taping thing for years and years, and have gotten the techniques down in making great recordings. My equipment is very decent, but my mics are totally out of this world, and always get the rooms down perfectly. Even then, when I know there were other equally good rigs in the sweet spots of those venues, I don't rush to offer out my recordings. I know others have excellent and most likely equally great recordings of those shows. It's only the very best recordings that I even bother to offer out. Now my terms have pretty much always been the same. If I send you CD's, you're getting a miracle from me. I don't expect anything in return! Except, I expect you (the person I'm sending them to) to circulate these great recordings to friends and others quickly. I look for posts from people I send discs to that offer up the shows as B&P's, trades, or even a few miracles. Those are the people I send more shows to in the future! I do continue to make occasional offers in message boards to others, but I tend to accept those that have complied with past offers they've received from me. I like spreading around great recordings only, and these people appreciate it enough to help me get the shows out there. I won't say I'm always highly active in burning and shipping out shows, but when I do, there are anywhere fron two dozen to three dozen people getting a package of at least two 3 disc shows from me. And, I usually burn and mail these couple of hundred discs in a week to ten day period. With the cost of the padded mailers, CD sleeves, and postage, as well as a few hundred blank CDR's, I give away well over $100 to people I don't know that well. Okay, many of these people come up to me at shows and ask me if I'm the guy who sent them the shows. I do wind up meeting many of the people I send discs to, and even a few of them actually have patched out of me in the past and knew who I was before answering my offers. So, maybe these aren't total strangers, but I'm still just giving the stuff away just to promote goodwill towards all tapers, as well as get these high quality shows widely circulated. That's sort of my hobby, and I get pleasure out of making many people happy. I'm also proud of my work, and get satifaction from being thanked for the great recordings. One thing this hobby does, is cost me a great deal of money. Some people even send me a few shows on their own, but I never ask them to. That's not part of the deal. I do try to keep my postage costs down a bit, and have found out that by combining 3 CD's in one paper sleeve, I can mail two shows in a #0 padded mailer for $1.06. When they are in individual CD sleeves, it costs $1.29 to mail the same six discs. Multiply that savings by two dozen or so packages a week, and I can send out maybe three more packages (to three different people who will circulate them) for the same cost. Since I then put the three discs in the CD sleeve together (holding my finger in the middle hole and thumb on the outside edge of all three discs), they do not rub against each other on this side of the mailing. When they receive them, they are free to take them all out as one, and put them in individual sleeves. I can't tell anyone how to handle the CD's I send them, but I sort of expect them to know how to treat them. I've never had anyone complain about the way I shipped them, or told they arrived damaged. Very, very rarely, I get a report that one of the discs had some errors detected on one particular track by EAC. Since this is maybe one out of 200 or so discs I burn, I don't think it was anything but a dective burn or defective disc. I then send out immediately (also totally at my cost) a replacement disc, as well as another totally diffent show. Since I'm doing a mailing, I might as well send a few discs at one time. If any of you guys have ever received discs from me, and wasn't happy with them being in one sleeve (instead of two or three), let me know. I'll make sure not to send you any more free discs! That's the way I feel about this subject. I go to great care and expense to get my recordings out there, and don't believe I've ever caused any discs to be damaged by my being cheap in the packaging and shipping. I think you guys should be more concerned with the source infomation, Japanese CD's, and quality of the recordings. Leave the peopla alone about how they send them to you! If you have a problem with one of the discs you receive, let them know, and I'm sure they'll send you out a replacement quickly. END THIS BULLSHIT TOPIC NOW!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ From: "Joseph Waldron" Subject: mbho 603a/ka200n's (active set) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 09:48:56 -0500 I still have this set. I forgot to post the price last time. 1000 + shipping, firm. shoot me an email if you're interested. joe@taperssection.com The set comes with: (2) ka200n Cardioid caps (matched pair) (2) 603a bodies (2) active cables (2) mbho mic clips (2) mic cases (1) Shure A53M Shockmount mbho's have a lifetime warranty taboot. All of the above makes a really small package with the a53m mount _________________________________________________________________ Winterize your home with tips from MSN House & Home. http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx ------------------------------ From: tesla69@threelobed.com Subject: Seeking - Malkmus and the JICKS Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 07:58:17 -0800 (PST) old school trader specifically looking for good quality recording of milwaukee may 24th 2003... would be interested in new contact for next year as well for above, Hagerty, tower recordings, so on. thanks Jim ------------------------------ From: tom groff Subject: 90m data tape Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 09:02:27 -0800 (PST) Hi I am sure this has been discussed before but I was wondering how bad is it to use 90m data tape compared to 60m data or dat? I have heard that anything 90m or over can damage your heads, I guess some of the material on the tape is more likely to come off on thinner tapes, especially if you play them a lot. But is it bad if I use a 90m for recording in my portable d100 when I know an artist is going to go over 2 hours? Also I have a solution for the cdr packing challenges. Trade DATs! Thanks Tom __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: jcarvalh Subject: RE:Packaging - an easy way to save sleeves and pack them in. Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:38:15 -0500 (EST) Hello all, I have an easy fix which may or may not help other out there looking to pack in those Tyvek/paper sleeves with 2 CDs when mailing. My technique not only saves on the sleeves being mailed but also on the damage to the CDs. A few years ago, I started using an inner Tyvek divider put between the surface of the 2 discs inside the Tyvek/paper sleeves. I would slip a small square of Tyvek in between the "read" sides of the discs inside the sleeve. It not only stops the cds from touching one another. Using them has not only allowed me to ship more cds in a nice compact package but also has allowed me to store all my 2 discs shows in one single sleeve (I also put a Tyvek liner in front of the plastic windows to stop any issues with sticking to that surface). Now, you may be asking where can I get a thin Tyvek sheet/liner to put in between 2 cds inside a sleeve. Your local US Post Office for free. In the US, go to the local post office and pick up a stack of USPS Priority Mail Envelopes. Not only are they free but they're made from Tyvek. When youre ready to send out some CDs, cut some squares out of the envelopes, slip it between the discs and ship! Its worked like a champ for me and other that I have turned onto this technique. What I tend to do is run a stack of Tyvek enveloped through a paper cutter and make a few hundred squares in about 4 minutes of work. With that said, I do not recommend using white paper as a substitute for Tyvek liner/dividers. Plain paper is way too abrasive. At a minimum, its work a try! Best regards to all. --- Jeff ------------------------------ From: Seth Breidbart Subject: Re: 90m data tape Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:32:22 -0500 (EST) > I am sure this has been discussed before but I was > wondering how bad is it to use 90m data tape compared > to 60m data or dat? Generally, not very; it depends on the deck. On a small deck it works the motor a lot harder. Few decks are actually designed to do stuff "right" for 90m tapes, but they aren't necessarily damaged by them. I've even used 120m tapes in home decks with no problems. (Speaking of which, I have a bunch of unused 120m tapes that I don't expect to use for data backup; anybody want them?) > I have heard that anything 90m or over can damage your heads, I > guess some of the material on the tape is more likely to come off on > thinner tapes, especially if you play them a lot. That's independent of the length. Some brands are harder on heads than others (but people vary in their opinions as to which). Seth ------------------------------ From: "Steve Sanford" Subject: re: "put 2 or 3 CDRs in the same sleeve" Reply-To: jigsawearth@lycos.com Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 14:48:48 -0500 i'll fess up here, i send out boatloads of blanks and i often "pack" a sleeve, i always put top to bottom and secure up the package so the discs don't slide across each other, put it all in a bubble mailer and i pretty much never have problems, if someone specifically ask for a certain method i'll normally comply or just hold off on the trade if it involves me having to go to the store to buy special packaging, if the disc is damaged i'll happily resend, its just a cd with some music on it for pete's sake, some of us have to save our money for more important things in life like our family and if you ever worked in a warehouse you'd know that those spindles have been tossed and kicked more than once before you grab it off the shelf, the trick is to keep em tight and you'll be safe, i'm trading music not packaging, all said, if others choose to be more attentive to the packaging, thats cool, just ask and i'll do what i can to keep anyone happy, but if others like me find it ok to do as we do, please don't bash us cause we don't agree enjoy steve s ____________________________________________________________ Get advanced SPAM filtering on Webmail or POP Mail ... Get Lycos Mail! http://login.mail.lycos.com/r/referral?aid=27005 ------------------------------ From: "Wayne D. Hoxsie Jr." Subject: Re: 90m data tape Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 13:56:54 -0600 tom groff wrote: > > Hi > > I am sure this has been discussed before but I was >wondering how bad is it to use 90m data tape compared >to 60m data or dat? I have heard that anything 90m or >over can damage your heads, I guess some of the >material on the tape is more likely to come off on >thinner tapes, especially if you play them a lot. But >is it bad if I use a 90m for recording in my portable >d100 when I know an artist is going to go over 2 >hours? > > Well, this seems to be a pretty charged subject around here, but I feel like stirring up the hornets nest a bit. 90 M tapes are a bit thinner in order to fit all 90 meters into the same case size as a 60 meter. Take a ruler and measure them both and you'll see that the spools are the same diameter. This means that there should be no difference in the load on the motors as this is a function of torque which will be the same for the same diameter wheel. There probably is a slight difference due to friction in the tape path, but I suspect that it may actually be less for thinner tape--I really don't know, but it's probably negligible anyway. As far as the media being damaging to the heads, when you think about the fact that DDS drives are backward compatible with older media (a 20/40 G DDS4 will happily read and write 1.3G DDS1 60M tapes) their really can't be all that much difference in the mechanics of the tape drive mechanisms. That leaves electronics and firmware. Some older decks had problems as they were never designed to read/write more than 120 minutes, but if your deck (a D-100 should work fine--I have an M-1 that has seen probably 95% 90M tapes with no problems) can handle it and write proper A-Time, etc., there shouldn't be any problem. The main factor in all this is to ensure that your deck is clean and in proper working order. Anyway, this is all mostly based on opinion and anecdote so your mileage my vary. -- Wayne D. Hoxsie Jr. wayne@hoxnet.com PGP Key ID 138BCEE1 ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** To unsubscribe from this digest, please send email to dat-heads-unsubscribe@datheads.phish.net If your email address has changed, you may (optionally) send the message to dat-heads-unsubscribe-oldaddress=olddomain@datheads.phish.net and the old address will be removed. 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