DAT-heads Digest #156
Contents:
Aud-Aud Matrix Mixing (David Sadowski)
Syncing two recordings & 100% Accurate sound/McCreadie's real (JH)
What can you record with a TiVo? ("Gary Davis")
RE: Synching Two Recordings ("American-Digital")
Grady ? ("Michael")
DMB Hershey, PA 7/10/04 (jmtooley@ce.net)
Guitar Shorty taping policy? (Colin Liston)
ISO Midwest Tapers (Dan Gale)
FS: Neumann KM140s with stereo kit ("Trey Woodruff")
* ISO Taper July 5 and July 31st Marin County ("Music Is Special")
From: David Sadowski <dsadowski@ameritech.net>
Subject: Aud-Aud Matrix Mixing
Reply-To: dsadowski@ameritech.net
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 02:37:40 -0500
In the general live concert situation, which is what we are talking
about here, the distances involved between the two recordings are small
enough to make your criticisms negligible. For instance, on the last
such recording I multitracked from two sources, the two sets of mics
were maybe 20 feet apart.
The two tapers were facing the same direction and were sampling
essentially similar sounds. So it's not like trying to superimpose two
photographs of the front and back of a house at the same time- not even
close.
On the other hand, it's a pretty good analogy to the double-tracking of
a vocal or an instrument on a recording. It's been a standard practice
since at least the early 60s.
Double-tracking a vocal is often done to increase the definition. In
fact, it's Brian Wilson's preferred method over adding echo.
But I have one other way to measure whether this method works or not,
and that's my ears. My ears tell me that it sounds better, and I've
done a-b comparisons and there is a definite improvement.
The main pitfall is simply making sure that there is the least amount of
artificial echo added. While there are certainly people who believe in
adding echo to live recordings after the fact, in general such echo will
tend to degrade the overall quality of sound.
When you have two recordings made such as I have described (fairly close
together in a medium sized hall) it should be no problem to match up the
sound coming from the stage more or less perfectly.
The results were better than either recording separately. I still
maintain that no single recording actually samples 100% of the actual
sound. But with the accuracy of modern equipment, you'll get an
improvement combining two recordings. However, the law of diminishing
returns would take hold after that.
A combination of six recordings might not be much improved over two.
From: Tom McCreadie <mccreadi@xs4all.nl>
Recordings Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:38:24 +0200 David Sadowski in #154:
>>.....
>>Interestingly, mixing two recordings adds greatly to the presence,
>>definition, and clarity. Imagine that a recorder samples the sound and
>>is never able to represent it with 100% accuracy. Then the second
>>recorder does the same thing.
>>
>>So, some bits of information missed by one recorder will be filled in
>from the second, bringing the new version much closer to 100% of the
>>sound. This is especially true when two different sets of microphones
>>were used.
>>....
ummmhh... The second recorder and mics don't supply 'missing'
information...they supply 'other' information - from a different
perspective, with a different character, e.g. differences in relative
levels of the sound sources, frequency responses and, especially, arrival
times. So imposing one on top of the other, may lead sooner to pea soup
than to greater clarity. Pursuing your notion, can we expect further
clarity gains by combining, say, 6 extra mic sources placed randomly in the
auditorium?
Consider an analogy: when you sell your house, you wouldn't appreciate the
real estate agent making one photo of the front- and one of the rear of
your house...then blending these photo's atop each other in his darkroom -
in order to provide the potential buyer with a higher definition picture of
your property.
Tom McCreadie
From: JH <kc7fys@yahoo.com>
Subject: Syncing two recordings & 100% Accurate sound/McCreadie's real
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 18:36:22 +0900
>From: Tom McCreadie <mccreadi@xs4all.nl>
>Subject: Re: Synching Two Recordings
>Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:38:24 +0200
>
>David Sadowski in #154:
> >.....
> >Interestingly, mixing two recordings adds greatly to the presence,
> >definition, and clarity.
I'm with Tom on this one. Many recordings are too present. If you are
talking about presence in the sense of upper-midrange frequency content.
Definition and clarity? Less reflected sound relative to
direct-from-the-source? Then more mics, or more sources will only add more
color. Any painter knows that mixing colors too much gives you a putrid
brown color. This mic or that soundboard source has a certain personality.
Dating Mona is a lot of fun; we go bowling and she likes to argue politics.
Dating Harue is also fun; she likes classic British films and snooker.
Would the ultimate date be if we could somehow cojoin Mona and Harue?
> Imagine that a recorder samples the sound and
> >is never able to represent it with 100% accuracy.
Again, this is wide open. Accuracy meaning? Perception of an audible event
is totally subjective. I've got a GBV soundboard that is incredibly
close-sounding and has a lot of "clarity, presence, and accuracy" I
suppose--but my "ears" have been placed next to Robert Pollard's lips,
directly in front of the guitar amp cabinet, hardwired to the bass player's
pickups--you get the picture. Some may like that, some may prefer a stereo
pair in the sweet spot in the club--neither is less accurate than the
other. Just two perspectives are represented.
Now, constructively--I've heard some interesting results from combining
these contrasting sources. There is a pretty popular Black Sabbath show
that circulates that is the result of doing this live. It's kinda surreal,
and sometimes due to time alignment issues, there's almost a 'preverb'
effect going on. I did it at a bluegrass festival last summer--just used
the extra channel left over from a monaural SBD feed to feed in an audience
mic. Using the pan on my stereo, I can balance that signal out so it's not
too distracting, and it makes a very interesting ambient addition to the
SBD. Not stereo--but a weird kind of two channel experience.
The different colors of different sources is what makes this hobby fun.
Jonathan
From: "Gary Davis" <g@hoxnet.com>
Subject: What can you record with a TiVo?
Reply-to: g@hoxnet.com
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 03:27:27 -0700
Several people asked me about this, so, you can record any NTSC
video source with a TiVo:
VHF/UHF Antenna
Cable w/o cable box
Cable with cable box
DirecTV, Dish
Any S-Video or Video source.
Picture and sound quality are excellent at the "Best" speed, audio
is still excellent at the "Worst" speed but picture is closer to VCD
quality.
--Gary
From: "American-Digital" <dan@am-dig.com>
Subject: RE: Synching Two Recordings
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 08:25:15 -0400
> From: Tom McCreadie <mccreadi@xs4all.nl>
> Subject: Re: Synching Two Recordings
>
> Consider an analogy: when you sell your house, you wouldn't appreciate
> the real estate agent making one photo of the front- and one of the
rear
> of your house...then blending these photo's atop each other in his
darkroom
> - in order to provide the potential buyer with a higher definition
picture
> of your property.
>
> Tom McCreadie
I disagree with this analogy. You're not gonna sit there for days,
sometimes weeks and make a matrix mix of 2 recordings if one of the
sources is bunk. Your analogy seems like you would use one source
recorded inside and one made from the parking lot. It just doesn't make
any sense and that won't happen.
I have personally made dozens of matrix mix and 5.1 recordings using
multiple sources of the same show. The end result is the matrix/5.1 is
ALWAYS better IMO than either of the 2 original sources if it is done
properly. Again, using 2 quality recordings. The only time my results
weren't much of anything is when I accidentally combined 2 sources from
very similar mics positioned in side by side seats. But even that
sounded slightly better IMO. Contrarily, I just made a Pearl Jam from
an in-house FM (ALD) mono SBD and a very lackluster AUD. Alone these 2
recordings were listenable but not real fun. The combination of the 2
was outstanding. I was taken by complete surprise. It was like peanut
butter sandwich that had jelly added to it...alone, whatever, but
together, really yummy.
What does it do mathematically or scientifically?...I dunno. Personal
experience is all I am going on but personal experience tells me the sun
is coming up in the east and it always does. The better the 2
recordings compliment each other (say one has strong bass, the other
clearer vocals) the better these mixes end up.
Funny, back in the day if you pulled an AUD that sounded like a SBD
you'd be psyched. But now that I make allot of matrix mixes from SBD
and AUD sources, the more they contrast each other, the better. I
actually like to hear good crowd in my AUDs when mixing with a really
'sterile' SBD.
Cheers-
Dan
BWT- Here is a recent mix. The matrix mix and the DTS 5.1 are better
IMO than the SBD and AUD were by themselves. This was not one of my
best results (the SBD was not so great and the AUD didn't have much
'feel' to it....great AUD but not for mixing purposes). I will pick 3
or so who promise to offer this back up to this or other lists.
Neil Young & Crazy Horse
Bonnaroo Music Festival
Manchester, TN
June 13, 2003
DTS-Audio-CD 5.1 Mix
Disc 1 63:59
01 [22.11] Love To Burn
02 [06.47] Sedan Delivery
03 [08.27] Powderfinger
04 [07.54] Hey Hey My My
05 [11.19] Cortez the Killer
06 [07.23] Fuckin' Up
Disc 2 68:51
01 [07.56] Jam >
02 [17.43] Like a Hurricane
Encores
03 [08.01] Be the Rain
04 [05.00] Cinnamon Girl
05 [08.09] Rockin' in the Free World
06 [05.51] Roll Another Number
07 [16.20] Down By The River
=========================================================
Source Info
DSBD
SBD > DA-P1 > DAT > CDR > EAC > WAV > SHN
AUD/FOB
Taper: Mark Lynn
Source: DPA 4011s > Luminous Monarch XLRs > Lunatec V2 >
Sonic AD2k+ @48khz > Sony M1
(FOB as DFC as possible, 3/4 between the board & stage)
=========================================================
Tech Notes
I used EAC in secure mode to extract all tracks at 100%
no reported errors. Cool Edit Pro 2.0 was used to align & synch both
sources. CEP2.0 used to adjust the volume for the front, rear, center
and LFE channels. Some hiss noise reduction applied to the SBD using
CEP2.0. Surcode
CD Pro DTS was used to encode to DTS.
- Mixed by dan@am-dig.com
- Shn conversion 11-JUN-2004
- Artwork by dan@am-dig.com 300dpi - For best results
print at the highest resolution onto glossy photo paper.
Design for use with a clear slim double jewel case.
=========================================================
DTS-Audio-CD Info
Front Left Left Channel Matrix SBD-75% / AUD - 25%
Front Right Right Channel Matrix SBD-75% / AUD - 25%
Center Mixed to mono -2db SBD > DAT
Surround Left Channel DPA 4011s > Lunatec V2 > AD2k
Surround Right Channel DPA 4011s > Lunatec V2 > AD2k
Sub/LFE Mixed to mono -2db SBD > DAT
=========================================================
More On DTS
Today's audio standards are moving towards multi-channel
sound, like DTS and Dolby Digital. While the Audio-CD
standard (Red Book) hasn't changed to accommodate these
new sound formats, it is still possible to go around the
specification and to put a 5.1 surround recording on a
regular Audio-CD. To play a DTS-Audio-CD you must connect
your DVD/CD player via a digital cable (optical or coaxial)
to your DTS Dolby-Digital receiver. It is not 100% sure
that your receiver will recognize a DTS-Audio CD, so the
first time you're trying to playback a DTS-Audio-CD you
must do a test to determine if it can. Begin with the
volume very low, start the disc and rise the volume
gradually. NEVER listen to a DTS-Audio-CD through the
analogue audio outputs of your CD/DVD player.
Burning Instructions
Burn them the absolute same way as you would burn any
normal Audio-CD from .shn files.
From: "Michael" <rostones@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Grady ?
Reply-To: <rostones@sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 11:56:13 -0400
Anyone taped Grady in Austin Texas ? They play at the Continental Club in
june and july...
Please contact me...
Michael
From: jmtooley@ce.net
Subject: DMB Hershey, PA 7/10/04
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 12:02:02 -0400
Anybody here planning on taping this show?
Thanks,
John
From: Colin Liston <cliston@cs.utk.edu>
Subject: Guitar Shorty taping policy?
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:03:34 -0400 (EDT)
Does anyone know if Guitar Shorty allows taping of any kind? Has anyone
ever tried to tape him?
thanks
colin
From: Dan Gale <dgale@loslobos.org>
Subject: ISO Midwest Tapers
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 11:59:40 -0700
I'm hoping to track down folks who can record the following midwest Los
Lobos shows:
6/30/04 Park West, Chicago IL
7/1/04 Summerfest, Milwaukee WI
7/3/04 "Saturday in the Park Fest" - Grandview Park, Sioux City IA (free
show)
If you are planning or able to catch any of these shows, please get in
touch and I can provide guestlist or otherwise facilitate things if you
can record the shows for me for the archives.
Thanks,
Dan
From: "Trey Woodruff" <Trey.Woodruff@L-3com.com>
Subject: FS: Neumann KM140s with stereo kit
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 16:19:47 -0500
I am selling a pair of neumann km140s with active cables, sth100 with xy =
and ortf mounts. This is a used pair in perfect working condition. These =
have been heavily used in the field and do show some wear. I do not have =
a wooden box, but will happily supply the Tupperware I keep them in to =
you. I am asking for $1400 plus shipping and will entertain reasonable =
offers.
Thanks and happy taping
Trey Woodruff
Assistant Contract Analyst C-12
L-3 Communications/ Vertex Aerospace
601-607-6310
Trey.Woodruff@L-3com.com
From: "Music Is Special" <musicisspecial@hotmail.com>
Subject: * ISO Taper July 5 and July 31st Marin County
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 22:06:36 -0500
Searching for a taper who would be interested in taping at the Marin County
Fair on Monday July 5th in San Rafael. I will cover all your costs for
ground transport and admission if you are in the Bay Area. Band is The
Cate Brothers. They are from Arkansas and sound a tad bit like The Band.
In the 70s they played some with Levon Helm. They rarely play - I think this
is about their 5th show of the year.
Also looking for taper on July 31st at Sonoma County Blues Festival in Santa
Rosa to tape James Blood Ulmer
Please contact me off list if interested.
Thanks
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