DAT-heads Digest #411, Volume #7 Sun, 6 Mar 05 11:50:01 EST Contents: Re: DAT-heads Digest #410 / DAT to WAV (acffh) Re: DAT-heads Digest #410 (James Treworgy) How do you listen to your music... (James Treworgy) Field Recording with an Edirol R-1 (David & Irma Holtkamp) Tool 11/16/02 - Anyone know the taper? (KindTaper@aol.com) FT: Kasabian, The Music 3-3-05 ST. LOUIS ("Danny T") Bruce Springsteen tapes for trade (Antonino Giannetto) DAT to WAV ("john e. bogus") Subject: DAT to WAV (Bob Ramstad) DAT to WAV (Thomas Wulf) Slipknot- Spectrum March 5, 2005 ("jlizard") ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: acffh Subject: Re: DAT-heads Digest #410 / DAT to WAV Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:31:49 -0600 If your DAT's are 48KHz and you want to have them backed up archivally, you will need to get the 48KHz data to the computer. Once it is ripped at 48KHz, I make a flac file for each large file (one per dat or one per set usually) and back these up on DVD-R. After that, I insert the track points, and export the individual files as 44.1, correct SBE's, then make FLAC's of them for circulation. Notice that the circulated CD-quality is NOT a complete backup, but rather a lossy transfer. DVD's use the 48KHz rate for audio- so I would hate to throw out all the 48KHz stuff only to find out later that I would rather have the 48's! back it ALL up! :-) On Mar 5, 2005, at 10:50 AM, Digestifier wrote: > > From: "Vernon Webb" > Subject: DAT to WAV > Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:01:12 -0500 > > OK, so we've covered the idea of how to get DAT on to a PC. So for the > next part of > the question. DATs are 48k and CDs are 44k. So what format do most > people RIP their > wavs as 48 or 41? I can see the benefit of RIPPING as 48, to preserve > the quality of > the DAT original format, but 48s can't be ripped to CD. So do we rip > as 48, convert to > 44, then RIP to CD? Huge job, especially once you've broken the tracks > down and so > forth. Of course we can keep the entire wav as 48k, break down the > tracks, save then > convert to 44k and then to FLAC, but damn, the work and the amount of > disk space. > > My intended purpose is to create FLAC files, so again, what is > everyone else doing? > > Thanks > ------------------------------ From: James Treworgy Subject: Re: DAT-heads Digest #410 Reply-To: James Treworgy Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 12:45:21 -0500 >So what format do most people RIP their wavs as 48 or 41 [sic]? Unless there's something I'm missing you would always "rip" your DAT at the same bitrate it was recorded using. Otherwise, you are doing a sample rate coversion with your PC's digital input card. This is probably of unknown quality, and almost certainly worse than you could do with software where it doesn't require being done in real-time. The goal should be to get the exact same bits onto your PC as there were on the DAT, the go from there. Hard drive space? That is a problem of the past... a 250 gig HD is about 100 bucks these days. Can't even buy a computer anymore with less than 60 gig. Should be no issue there unless you're using old hardware and/or you're dirt poor.. which I expect anyone considering sample rate conversions of their DATs is not ;-) The sample rate conversion is a simple step, it just takes time to process. Do it BEFORE you break the tracks to the whole big wav you got off the DAT, and it's only one step. Start the conversion at the highest quality setting your software permits, go to bed, and it's done when you wake up. If these are masters that you indend to preseve for posterity, just burn a DVD-R of the unprocessed 48k wav before you do the conversion. ------------------------------ From: James Treworgy Subject: How do you listen to your music... Reply-To: James Treworgy Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 12:57:54 -0500 A slightly different angle on the sample rate issue is, how do you intend to listen to your music? If you will burn CDs, obviously you must convert to 44.1. However, the technology is evolving. Many people using portable devices like iPods that can possibly play files in different sample rates. There's almost a DVD-audio standard that will let you burn 48 khz (and 96/32) to play in that format. I have a network music server (a Slim Devices Squeezebox) that can even play FLACs directly. So I think it's always worth preserving the "native" format of any recording even if you must convert for now. Personally I archive FLACs of everything I collect to DVD-Rs in it's native sample rate, and then convert to MP3 (also in it's native sample rate) for my networked music device. To my own ears 320 VBR j-stereo MP3 is almost indistinguishable from uncompressed, and I can't justify having a server with several terabytes of hard drive space just to have the full-format audio available on my stereo versus the MP3s. But of course I keep the FLACs archived for trading, burning CDs, or for five years from now when I can get a 10 terabyte hard disk for a hundred bucks, at which point I will keep all the FLACs online for my music server ;-) ------------------------------ From: David & Irma Holtkamp Subject: Field Recording with an Edirol R-1 Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:06:40 -0700 Hi Folks, I'm a newbie to DAT-heads, but have been recording live shows for a while with laptops, external digitizers (via USB), etc. I thought I would share some experiences I'm having with a new (to me at least) approach to field recording. Experience taught me that 24 bit dynamic range was a very important element of successful, less stressful field recording. Higher digitization rates (> 44.1 kHz) would be nice, but were less important than the flexibility that larger dynamic range offers. Here is the setup: an Edirol R-1 handheld recorder (http://www.edirol.com/products/info/r1.html) offering 24bit/44.1 kHz WAV (uncompressed) onto compact flash cards. I chose to use two 2 GB CF cards - each one offers 125 minutes of recording at 24/44.1 rates, for a total of a bit over 4 hours. I bought 2 GB CF cards since early on this was the maximum size validated for use in the R-1 by Edirol. Since then I've read that larger (4 or 6 GB) CF cards will also work if formatted as FAT32. I've not confirmed this actually works. The R-1 also offers 16 bit WAV and compressed (MP3) modes for longer recording, but I'm not using those modes. The R-1 also has internal microphones, which aren't too bad I guess, but I don't use them. Data readout from the R-1 is via USB-2 so it is quite fast and convenient - it "mounts" like an external disk drive on my PC (presumably similarly on a Mac or Linux). For inputs I use a matched pair of Oktava MC012 microphones (http://sound-room.com/customer/product.php?productid=103&cat=2&page=1) feeding a Really Nice Preamp (http://www.fmraudio.com/RNP8380.htm). The RNP provides phantom power and preamp control to the line-in on the Edirol R-1. Battery life is reasonably good. I have tested the R-1 several times with 1700 mAH NiMH (two AA required) and I get consistent 4hr 26min of continuous 24/44.1 recording from a freshly charged, ~1 yr old pair of NiMH AA's. I am guessing that newer NiMH (2100 or 2300 mAH) might do even better. Results with fresh alkaline AA's are much poorer - only about 2hr 10 min, because the alkalines voltage drops linearly with time at the discharge rate used by the R-1. So even though the alkalines are not completely "dead" when the R-1 stops with a "Low Battery" indication, they still are not going to work well in the R-1. For the RNP I use a small (7.5 AH) sealed lead acid battery and it should provide about 12 hours at the measured RNP current draw at 12 V (about 7-7.5 W average). I tried a set of 8 D cells (which worked fine), but chose to go with the rechargeable SLA instead. The setup fits nicely into a small briefcase (batteries, cables, microphones) and all I carry is a microphone stand with a pair of mounts on top. So, just thought I would share this with folks in case you are thinking about moving from DAT or mini-disc to a different, more computer based medium. Best wishes and good luck to all! David Holtkamp Los Alamos, NM ------------------------------ From: KindTaper@aol.com Subject: Tool 11/16/02 - Anyone know the taper? Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 14:13:49 EST Does anyone know the taper of that 11/16/02 show that sounds so good? I have a question for him/her. Please reply privately if you know who I'm looking for. Thanks, Wes Kindtaper@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "Danny T" Subject: FT: Kasabian, The Music 3-3-05 ST. LOUIS Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 13:35:19 -0600 Got a nice recording of both bands, but there is a fade in on the first track of Kasabian's set. I had a bit of a loading error with my M-1. Kasabian runs 50 minutes, The Music runs 78 minutes. CSB's w/ roll-off >Sony PCM M-1 >7 pin to COAX >CDR >Ripped to WAV w/ FreeRip >Levels boosted in Audacity >Tracked w/CDWAVE Looking for other recordings from The Music. Have a nice day, Danny My trade page: www.sanctifiedpress.com/trade.html ------------------------------ From: Antonino Giannetto Subject: Bruce Springsteen tapes for trade Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 23:27:48 +0100 Hello! I'm a Bruce collector and I would like to trade high quality Bruce live tapes (please no copies from Bootlegs); I'm expecially interested in tapes from 1970-1990. I hope somebody can help me Ciao Antonino ------------------------------ From: "john e. bogus" Subject: DAT to WAV Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 19:32:02 -0500 "DATs are 48k and CDs are 44k. So what format do most people RIP their wavs as 48 or 41? I can see the benefit of RIPPING as 48, to preserve the quality of the DAT original format, but 48s can't be ripped to CD. So do we rip as 48, convert to 44, then RIP to CD? Huge job, especially once you've broken the tracks down and so forth. Of course we can keep the entire wav as 48k, break down the tracks, save then convert to 44k and then to FLAC, but damn, the work and the amount of disk space" Why not avoid resampling entirely and burn the recording to DVD-A? Let's start thinking forward here instead of taking a step backwards...... Yours Truly, john e. bogus ------------------------------ From: Bob Ramstad Subject: Subject: DAT to WAV Reply-To: rramstad@alum.mit.edu Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 18:45:03 -0800 "Vernon Webb" wrote > Subject: DAT to WAV > Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:01:12 -0500 > > OK, so we've covered the idea of how to get DAT on to a PC. So for the next part of > the question. DATs are 48k and CDs are 44k. So what format do most people RIP their > wavs as 48 or 41? I can see the benefit of RIPPING as 48, to preserve the quality of > the DAT original format, but 48s can't be ripped to CD. So do we rip as 48, convert to > 44, then RIP to CD? Huge job, especially once you've broken the tracks down and so > forth. Of course we can keep the entire wav as 48k, break down the tracks, save then > convert to 44k and then to FLAC, but damn, the work and the amount of disk space. > > My intended purpose is to create FLAC files, so again, what is everyone else doing? Vernon, the DDS reading process produces WAV files at the same sample frequency as the incoming DAT. If the DAT is 48 khz, you get 48 khz WAV files. If the DAT is 44.1 khz, you get 44.1 khz WAV files. If the DAT had preemphasis, you get WAV files that need to either be deemphasized or burned with the emphasis flag set. What you had before on the DAT is what you now have as WAV. Resampling is a complicated topic, but doing it couldn't be easier. I use libsamplerate (with other optional libraries installed) and have been happy with the results. http://www.mega-nerd.com/SRC/ So, here's my set of steps, and if it seems like a lot of work, it both is and it isn't... once you do it a few times, it becomes second nature. On Linux: * import DAT to WAV using read_dat * if necessary, resample using libsamplerate * if necessary, deemphasize using sox I keep all of these files whole, complete, dumps of the entire DAT as well as processed versions split into tracks. On Windows: * edit file using Sound Forge, generally doing as little as possible * split tracks using CD Wave * encode to FLAC using FLAC Front End It's a good idea to make md5sums of the files so you can be sure later that the files haven't been corrupted. I save everything off when I'm all done to DVD-R. It can easily take me 5 hours of actual work to archive a 2 hour DAT. This includes a careful listen at the end of the process. I hadn't heard the praise for the Sony SDT-9000 DDS3 error correction before now, I use an old Python and have had no real problems. Then again, I carefully listen to the FLAC files when I'm done using headphones and go back and check the source DAT on every glitch I find... it's always been on the source DAT too, when I listen to it on a Sony 60ES. I log all the glitches and keep them with the source files so if I later hear a glitch I can check and know for sure it was on the master. If anyone has a good line on Sony SDT-9000 with appropriate firmware, please send me email... I'd love to get one if they are that much better than the Python drives. All I've seen are the regular Sony SDT-9000 with regular firmware and I have no idea if those will work. -- Bob ------------------------------ From: Thomas Wulf Subject: DAT to WAV Reply-To: Thomas Wulf Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:16:00 +0100 < DATs are 48k and CDs are 44k.. < what is everyone else doing? i have a working da20, which i use for playback and a es60 with defunct transport, which nicely does all sorts of conversions. i feed it via analog and let the sbm-digitized output run into my computer card ( a terratec ews24/96). better quality than any software i tried and done in real time. the es60 also receives analog input from a receiver when i digitize records or cassettes, so having a digital input card makes a lot of sense imo, despite being 1x only. as for 48kHz vs 44.1: well i do not care much about the 8,8% missing information (nor, to put it bluntly, about opinions of people who claim, they can hear a clear difference); in my psychological bookkeeping the information is used up during the conversion, so it is put to a good use ;-) :):):) Thomas mailto:TaWulf@wulfware.de ------------------------------ From: "jlizard" Subject: Slipknot- Spectrum March 5, 2005 Reply-to: "jlizard" Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 08:54:59 -0500 If anyone taped Slipknot at the Spectrum in Philly last night (March 5, 2005), drop me an email. Have lots of DATs to trade. Brian ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** To unsubscribe from this digest, please send email to dat-heads-unsubscribe@datheads.phish.net If your email address has changed, you may (optionally) send the message to dat-heads-unsubscribe-oldaddress=olddomain@datheads.phish.net and the old address will be removed. Problems or questions about a subscription should be addressed via these avenues and then if needed to dat-heads-owner@datheads.phish.net or postmaster@datheads.phish.net never the list itself You can submit a message for inclusion in the next digest via this address: Internet: dat-heads@datheads.phish.net Archives of DAT-Heads digests and related files are available on the DAT-Heads home page: http://www.solorb.com/dat-heads/ End of DAT-Heads Digest ******************************