DAT-heads Digest #421, Volume #7 Tue, 15 Mar 05 11:50:01 EST Contents: gear for sale ("mattz62@juno.com") WTD: taper for YLT on WFMU tomorrow (Tue 3/15/05) (Michael Edmonson) RE: specification comparison? Now compare Sony to Edirol R-1 (David & Irma Holtkamp) Re: specification comparison? 16 vs 24 bit recording (David & Irma Holtkamp) european tours ("Slipkid") WTD: Sony ECM-MS957 personal reviews (Karl) ISO-PRAXIS tapers for Columbus, OH (3/31/05) and Chicago, IL (4/2/05) ("Steve Savage") Let the DAT liquidation begin (Jah Rasta Fish) A Marantz in the Hand or an Edirol in the bush? (Stephen Bezruchka) Anyone still trade on DAT? Looking for UK indie/britpop DAT tapers/traders.... (Alex Kim) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mattz62@juno.com" Subject: gear for sale Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:46:49 GMT I have the following gear for sale...I'm just trying to clear it out so all reasonable offers will be entertained. Tascam DA-P1 Graham Patten ADC-20 Sony DTC-ze700 if interested, send an e-mail to mattz62@juno.com with an offer. Thanks, Matt Pfeil ___________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ------------------------------ From: Michael Edmonson Subject: WTD: taper for YLT on WFMU tomorrow (Tue 3/15/05) Reply-To: edmonson@sdf.lonestar.org Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:42:13 -0500 Anyone taping Yo La Tengo's 3-hour all-request marathon on WFMU tomorrow? http://www.wfmu.org/marathon/schedule.shtml I live in Pennsylvania. Please don't make me put all my gear in the car and drive 2 hours to find some parking lot in Elizabeth to tape in! Michael ------------------------------ From: David & Irma Holtkamp Subject: RE: specification comparison? Now compare Sony to Edirol R-1 Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:36:25 -0700 Udo, You asked about specs on dynamic range and S:N for the Sony D100 vs the Edirol R-1. I only know what I've measured on my R-1. I've looked in my documentation for any mention of either dynamic range or S:N, and I can't find anything like what you posted. You wrote: >> For the Edirol: Frequency response: 20 Hz--20 kHz (+/- 2dBu) Dynamic Range: 83dB S:N 93 dB << Can you tell me where you found this? I'm curious... I use my R-1 with external microphones (Oktava matched MC012's) going into an FMRAudio Really Nice Preamp and then into the R-1 line input. So some of my results may not be helpful to you, but here goes: Using the line input, I can't see any digitizer noise at all down to about -90 dB (RMS) down. The peak maximum of any noise is about -72 to -73 dB down, even at maximum input sensitivity. With the external microphone inputs, I see an RMS noise floor at about -68 dB, with peaks as high as -53 dB down. Still absolutely negligible for concert recordings. This is with the input microphone levels at maximum, so normal (i.e. lower) recording levels (especially for loud concerts) the noise floor will be much lower than this. I note that these noise floors (for this R-1) can be compared to other microphone preamps and appear to be reasonably good. These R-1 values compare favorably with an M-audio preamp/USB digitizer I've used with a laptop. I wouldn't be too concerned with these small differences in specs between the Sony and the R-1. I would recommend you make a decision based on how you plan to use the recorder, whether you want to use DAT (D100) or compact flash cards (R-1), have compressed recording (MP3s) sometimes (R-1 has it, D100 does not), digital input (D100 has it, R-1 does not; both have digital outputs), size, weight, battery life, etc. Hope this is helpful! Best wishes, David Holtkamp Los Alamos, NM ------------------------------ From: David & Irma Holtkamp Subject: Re: specification comparison? 16 vs 24 bit recording Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:39:12 -0700 Udo et al, I will try to share some insight on your questions below. I include part of your message for reference: >From: udo >Subject: specification comparison? >Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:50:15 -0800 (PST) > > >Can anyone with some insight explain? >Maybe also why 24-bit is a useful option on the R-1? In a word - Dynamic Range - ok, ok...that's two words. But as Bullwinkle said, "I'm a heavy tipper." When recording, particularly live shows, it is an art to set the recorder to as high a level as possible to avoid the intrinsic noise in the recording system (preamps, etc) while *never* clipping (especially for digital recordings) . It is well know that digital clipping (unlike analog clipping - which saturates more gradually and at modest clipping levels compresses acceptably well) is horrible to listen to for any length of time. For a recorder of n bit depth (where n = 16 or 20 or 24), then the full dynamic range that this recorder can accommodate is 2**n (two to the nth power). Generally a recorder records both positive and negative voltages ("bipolar") so the most positive and most negative voltages that can be recorded split this dynamic range in 2. An example, a 16 bit CD has 2**16 possible levels for the voltage, split by 2 means it can range (for this example) from,say, +2**15 to -2**15 minus 1 ( +32768 to -32767, because "0" takes one of the allowed values). Thus the dynamic range available is about 90 dB (in power). A 24 bit recorder can record values between +8388608 and - 8388607, or about 138 dB. Now a concert might have an average dynamic range of 20 or 30 dB, so this seems like massive overkill. But I routinely see 40 dB or more in peak dynamic range in concerts, and at home I record my kids with 60 dB or more of peak dynamic range (I use good microphones!). There are two things that "headroom" like 24 bit recording can give you. First, you can set the average recording level safely at 15 or 20 dB below clipping and be assured that you won't clip when the guy sitting next to you let's out a very, very loud "WHHHOOOP!" (or claps right on top of the microphone). You can digitally compress his peak without affecting the music that is likely 10 or 15 dB down from that transient loud sound. Second advantage is that you won't run into "bit noise" distortion caused by the recording small numbers in the digitizer. I won't go into an overly long discussion of this, but in a nutshell, "bit noise" is a distortion that happens when the digital representation of waveform has a small enough amplitude that when it is recorded ('digitized") to a string of numbers, the numbers are small enough that the difference between, say, 100 and 101 is not as smooth a replica of the original sound as when it is 100000 going to 100001. So when you go to mix it down to 16 bits, applying corrections and selected compression to make a more listenable recording, you apply math to small numbers and distortion can creep in. I don't want to say that this is a big effect, because most people never worry about it. And 16 bit recorders do just fine for most folks. But you asked what 24 bit recording was good for. Best wishes, David Holtkamp ------------------------------ From: "Slipkid" Subject: european tours Reply-To: "Slipkid" Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 01:10:15 -0500 has anyone here taped (or is planning to tape) any of these artists on their recent tours? some of these artists will only be in europe/uk and i would like to hookup with some traders across the pond robin trower: http://www.trowerpower.com/tours/current/index.html porcupine tree: http://www.porcupinetree.com/index2.cfm glenn hughes: http://www.glennhughes.com/tourography/tourlist.htm#soulmover2005 ian hunter: http://www.ianhunter.com/tour.shtml if you have something recent on these folks and you want to trade, please drop me a line, loads to offer in return thanks, - jon - slipkid@voicenet.com ------------------------------ From: Karl Subject: WTD: Sony ECM-MS957 personal reviews Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 22:24:35 +1300 Hi, I've heard some great bootlegs made with the ECM-MS957 and am thinking of buying one. Does anyone here use it for bootlegging concerts? How do you find it? Is it easy to mount? My only concern is that it looks a bit to big to stealth tape with.... Any personal reviews of this microphone would be greatly appreciated. Either through personal email on on DATheads. Ow and I have a Sony TCD-D8, Core Sound Cardioids and a Sony ECM-717 at the moment. Thanks -Karl ------------------------------ From: "Steve Savage" Subject: ISO-PRAXIS tapers for Columbus, OH (3/31/05) and Chicago, IL (4/2/05) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:18:12 -0500 Hey everyone, Just wondering a couple of things... Does anyone know an official stance by PRAXIS about taping? I know that they have allowed it it at Bonnaroo but was't sure about any general policy. If I can do it, I will be recording using a digital 8 camcorder. Also, is anyone who is attending these shows planning on taping them? If you are, please let me know. Even if I am able to video tape, I'd like a high end audio source for my video since I don't have external mics. Any response can be done offlist to juggleslugg at hotmail dot com. Thanks, Steve PS- if you are into stoner rock at all (Kyuss, QOTSA, Monster Magnet, etc...) check out www.kyussqotsa.com/forum. ------------------------------ From: Jah Rasta Fish Subject: Let the DAT liquidation begin Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:24:26 -0800 (PST) Well, now that I have my D-100 listed up on Ebay, the next step is to liquidate this huge collection of DAT's I have amassed. I was going to catalog it all but it was simply too much to deal with, so I will be selling them in lots of 10 tapes at a time. Lot "A": 2 x Zonal 124 DAT (Smiling Assassins 3-14-03) 2 x TDK DA-R 120 DAT (Galactic 8-18-02 & Project Logic 6-7-02) 1 x Quantegy R-124 DAT (Garaj Mahal 9-21-02) 1 x 90m Apple Computer DDS (Club D'Elf 3-24-02) 1 x Sony DGP-60 DDS (Seth Yacavone Band 5-24-02) 3 x Maxell HS-4/60s DDS (WSP 11-14-01 & Eric Clapton 1-15-90) Lot "B": 1 x Quantegy R-124 DAT (Ulu 11-6-02) 1 x Sony DG 90P DDS (Phish 11-30-97) 1 x TDK DC4-90 DDS (The Recipe 9-21-02) 2 x Maxell HS-4/60s DDS (Phish 3-1-97) 2 x TDK DA-R 120 DAT (Bela Fleck 8-13-02) 3 x Maxell HS-4/90s DDS (Trey 5-8-99, Phish 7-12-00, & Phil & Phriends 4-17-99) I would like to get $20 for each lot of 10 tapes, plus $3 shipping. I really don't want to break them up, it is far easier for me to keep them in lots of ten. I will be listing several more of these groups of tapes as I continue cleaning out my taping gear, they are almost all two-pass tapes (recorded once and played back once, then put into storage) and should all be good candidates for re-use. Also, I have a pair of CoreSound Cards (the standard model, not the cheapies or the high-end) with battery box if anyone is interested. I would let them go for $130. Pretty sure I still have the removable clips and the extra windscreens for them as well. Thanks, Brian ------------------------------ From: Stephen Bezruchka Subject: A Marantz in the Hand or an Edirol in the bush? Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:57:31 -0800 (PST) I've appreciated others reviews and information on this list so decided to share what I have learned. Be the first kid on your block with one of these! Audio recording is taking a big step with some good results. Back in the fall, the Edirol R1 was announced and attracted a great deal of attention with no commercial publicity, suggesting the recordists out there were eager to try something new. This unit promised to record wav and mp3 files with 24 and 16 bit word sizes and 44.1 kHz and various kbps compression rates. People began ordering and some got their units early this year. I spent several months trying to decide if this unit was for me and Klay Anderson reasoned that "since technology eats itself every 18 months so I am sure that there is something on the horizon. How long are you willing to wait for some vaporware at the price you are willing to pay with the feature set you dreamed of that is right now discussed on a Tokyo golf course?" I ordered one two months ago, and waited and waited, as production has been delayed. The R1 was bigger than the Sony M1 DAT that I have been using for years at various efforts, from self-taping lectures, to taping speakers and live music, to using it in Nepal to capture wild sound and people singing and dancing. With a bevy of mics and techniques, it was amazing what the M1 cold do. The feature set of the R1 lacked an ALC (automatic level control) which is useful when you can't check the levels, and had many effect playback features I would never use. A week ago, as I was checking on my delayed order, the salesman again suggested I look at the Marantz PMD 660. I'd dismissed his earlier mention of it because I thought he was referring to the PMD 670, a large unit, (Sony TC-D5M size or Tascam DAP1). But I checked out the few details I could find on the web and switched my order to the Marantz which came last night and delighted the kid on Christmas Day in me that I had only experienced a few times as I approach caducity. One time was getting a UHER Report 4400 in 1974 that I took to Nepal, and another was the Sony Walkman WMD6C about 12 years later that allowed me new versatility in Nepal. The DAT did it too. But the Marantz is an incredible unit that has amazing capabilities. The 660 is a tad bigger than the WMD6C in all directions, but about the same weight and heft. That's big by M1 standards, with the R1 in the middle. The 660 is designed for field recording, incorporating wish lists from many. So it has a pair of XLR connectors, switch able 48 V phantom, an internal pair of mics, a small speaker, line in and out jacks, headphone jack, and modern USB 2 and Compact Flash technology. Powered by 4 AA, you can set it for alkaline or NiMH discharge profiles, and when the unit is about to have a powerless death, you can set it to beep at you. You can choose from ALC, manual gain control of each channel separately, and can set the LED meters, which read each channel independently) to either indicate only peak values or the bar (colored organe 6 dB or above and red at over) to enable minimum current consumption. The meters are ideally placed at the end of the unit so if worn vertically, can be easily followed. You record at 44.1 and 48 kHz 16 bit word wav files or 64 or 128 kbps mp3 files in either sampling frequency to CF or microdrive media. If you record in mono, then file sizes are halved (unlike the R1 which duplicates the signal to both channels, taking up more space). There are 3 preset combinations of parameters so you can set one, say, for stereo 48 kHz, 16 bit, manual level controls, another for mono mp3, ALC, and a third for the built in mic and output to the speaker/headphones. Changing presets is easy. The date and time is entered in each file, and you can vary many other parameters including time to shut off, beeping alerts, silent skip, auto mark, prerecord, etc. Incredible versatility There is much editing on the fly you can do, marking points in files, and then assembling them in virtual tracks for ENG, so you can have all your actualities ready to go. You can output via the line, via the USB (although the recorder needs to be plugged into the AC then), or by putting the CF card into a reader. Inputting files can be done by copying them to the CF in your computer, providing you name them with the Machine ID and numbering system that the card has been formatted with. That aspect is not as easy, I presume, as with an iPOD (I've never used one). Even the manual is pretty clear. The deficiencies of the R1, to me, include no ALC, no visual calibration of recording levels, and too many playback effects, metronome and tuner that suggest this unit was designed for a budding musician. It is also bigger than the M1, although 2 inches shorter than the PMD 660. As well the 3.5 mm stereo mic jack with plug-in power is easy to use with such mics, but limited for what the pro's use. What I wish the Marantz had was a 3.5 mm stereo mic jack with plug in power in addition, a limiter, and of course that it was smaller. But with XLR hardware and running off 4 AAs (so you get long run times), I would guess it could be shrunk eventually by as much as 50% in time. Some tapers would like digital in. Yes, 24 bit words and 96 kHz, but probably not for this kind of field unit although SoundDevices does that for a price. Sound? To my ears, this unit is great. If you use the -20dB mic attenuator and crank up your output, there is some noise. It costs $50-60 more than the Edirol and is in stock now. My applications will include recording lectures with a lav, although planting a lav on someone and putting the recorder in his or her pocket might produce bulge-gate, because it is much bigger than an M1. The answer to that is to use a wireless body pack lav with a portable receiver sitting with the 660. I've tried that and it works very well, especially if you use Neutrik right-angled XLR's so they don't hang out of the bottom and make a compact set up. This will allow creating small (mono) mp3 files of lectures that can be put on the web. And then with a boundary mic, or interview mic, or shotgun or a pair of phantom powered condensor mics there is a definite advance in portability without needing extra power supplies etc. So that is my quick look. Consider it. Stephen ------------------------------ From: Alex Kim Subject: Anyone still trade on DAT? Looking for UK indie/britpop DAT tapers/traders.... Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:34:36 -0800 (PST) Hello- I've recently (over the last few months) been trying to re-establish trading contacts after being "retired" for about 10 years. I've had trouble, however, meeting people who can/want to trade on DAT...it seems that those that record on DAT are more into trading CDs and everyone else is using MD decks for recording. Don't people record and trade DAT clones anymore? People must! I don't mind trading CDs but would love to trade on DAT! So, I thought I'd make a posting here to see if I can find some DAT tapers/trades.... I'm into a lot of different things but I've focused on masters of the following bands - no particular order and not necessarily complete: The Sundays Trash Can Sinatras Spiritualized/Spacemen 3/Sonic Boom/Spectrum Verve/Richard Ashcroft Wedding Present/Cinerama Paul Weller/The Jam/Style Council Slowdive/Mojave 3/Halstead/Goswell Mazzy Star/Hope Sandoval Belle & Sebastian/Looper Morrissey/Smiths/Johnny Marr Blur/Graham Coxon Bluetones Heavenly Snow Patrol Kasabian Stone Roses/Ian Brown/John Squire/Seahorses Boo Radleys Charlatans Chapterhouse Cornershop/Clinton G500/Luna/Damon & Naomi Salad Sleeper Elastica Echo/Electrafixion/Ian McCulloch Frente/Splendid Jesus & Mary Chain & related Jane's Addiction Love Lush/Sing-Sing My Bloody Valentine Ocean Colour Scene early Oasis Pixies Pulp Portishead Ride/Gardner/Bell/Animalhouse/Hurricane Stereolab shoegazers...britpop..UK indie...etc, etc, etc. In most cases I have masters of pretty much all those bands and more. I'm a California based trader...Since 94, I've been using a D7 + 2 ECM-77B mics. I also have the ability to defeat SCMS so I can essentially make clones of anything I have on DAT or CD. I can trade on DDS (60m or 90m), SP or LP mode - although SP preferred. Home decks: Sony PCM-R300 & DTC-690. If interested, please email me for a full trade list in excel. Non-DAT tapers welcomed as well. Thanks for the time, Alex Alexander Kim alexdk@yahoo.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** To unsubscribe from this digest, please send email to dat-heads-unsubscribe@datheads.phish.net If your email address has changed, you may (optionally) send the message to dat-heads-unsubscribe-oldaddress=olddomain@datheads.phish.net and the old address will be removed. 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