DAT-heads Digest #421
Contents:
gear for sale ("mattz62@juno.com")
WTD: taper for YLT on WFMU tomorrow (Tue 3/15/05) (Michael Edmonson)
RE: specification comparison? Now compare Sony to Edirol R-1 (David & Irma Holtkamp)
Re: specification comparison? 16 vs 24 bit recording (David & Irma Holtkamp)
european tours ("Slipkid")
WTD: Sony ECM-MS957 personal reviews (Karl)
ISO-PRAXIS tapers for Columbus, OH (3/31/05) and Chicago, IL (4/2/05) ("Steve Savage")
Let the DAT liquidation begin (Jah Rasta Fish)
A Marantz in the Hand or an Edirol in the bush? (Stephen Bezruchka)
Anyone still trade on DAT? Looking for UK indie/britpop DAT tapers/traders.... (Alex Kim)
From: "mattz62@juno.com" <mattz62@juno.com>
Subject: gear for sale
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:46:49 GMT
I have the following gear for sale...I'm just trying to clear it out so all reasonable offers will be entertained.
Tascam DA-P1
Graham Patten ADC-20
Sony DTC-ze700
if interested, send an e-mail to mattz62@juno.com with an offer.
Thanks,
Matt Pfeil
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From: Michael Edmonson <edmonson@sdf.lonestar.org>
Subject: WTD: taper for YLT on WFMU tomorrow (Tue 3/15/05)
Reply-To: edmonson@sdf.lonestar.org
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:42:13 -0500
Anyone taping Yo La Tengo's 3-hour all-request marathon on WFMU
tomorrow?
http://www.wfmu.org/marathon/schedule.shtml
I live in Pennsylvania. Please don't make me put all my gear in the
car and drive 2 hours to find some parking lot in Elizabeth to tape in!
Michael
From: David & Irma Holtkamp <holtkamp@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: specification comparison? Now compare Sony to Edirol R-1
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:36:25 -0700
Udo,
You asked about specs on dynamic range and S:N for the Sony D100 vs the
Edirol R-1. I only know what I've measured on my R-1. I've looked in my
documentation for any mention of either dynamic range or S:N, and I can't
find anything like what you posted. You wrote:
>>
For the Edirol:
Frequency response: 20 Hz--20 kHz (+/- 2dBu)
Dynamic Range: 83dB
S:N 93 dB
<<
Can you tell me where you found this? I'm curious...
I use my R-1 with external microphones (Oktava matched MC012's) going into
an FMRAudio Really Nice Preamp and then into the R-1 line input. So some of
my results may not be helpful to you, but here goes:
Using the line input, I can't see any digitizer noise at all down to about
-90 dB (RMS) down. The peak maximum of any noise is about -72 to -73 dB
down, even at maximum input sensitivity.
With the external microphone inputs, I see an RMS noise floor at about -68
dB, with peaks as high as -53 dB down. Still absolutely negligible for
concert recordings. This is with the input microphone levels at maximum, so
normal (i.e. lower) recording levels (especially for loud concerts) the
noise floor will be much lower than this.
I note that these noise floors (for this R-1) can be compared to other
microphone preamps and appear to be reasonably good. These R-1 values
compare favorably with an M-audio preamp/USB digitizer I've used with a laptop.
I wouldn't be too concerned with these small differences in specs between
the Sony and the R-1. I would recommend you make a decision based on how
you plan to use the recorder, whether you want to use DAT (D100) or compact
flash cards (R-1), have compressed recording (MP3s) sometimes (R-1 has it,
D100 does not), digital input (D100 has it, R-1 does not; both have digital
outputs), size, weight, battery life, etc.
Hope this is helpful!
Best wishes,
David Holtkamp
Los Alamos, NM
From: David & Irma Holtkamp <holtkamp@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: specification comparison? 16 vs 24 bit recording
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:39:12 -0700
Udo et al,
I will try to share some insight on your questions below. I include part
of your message for reference:
>From: udo <udovdh@yahoo.com>
>Subject: specification comparison?
>Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:50:15 -0800 (PST)
>
>
>Can anyone with some insight explain?
>Maybe also why 24-bit is a useful option on the R-1?
In a word - Dynamic Range - ok, ok...that's two words. But as Bullwinkle
said, "I'm a heavy tipper."
When recording, particularly live shows, it is an art to set the recorder
to as high a level as possible to avoid the intrinsic noise in the
recording system (preamps, etc) while *never* clipping (especially for
digital recordings) . It is well know that digital clipping (unlike analog
clipping - which saturates more gradually and at modest clipping levels
compresses acceptably well) is horrible to listen to for any length of time.
For a recorder of n bit depth (where n = 16 or 20 or 24), then the full
dynamic range that this recorder can accommodate is 2**n (two to the
nth power). Generally a recorder records both positive and negative
voltages ("bipolar") so the most positive and most negative voltages that
can be recorded split this dynamic range in 2.
An example, a 16 bit CD has 2**16 possible levels for the voltage, split by
2 means it can range (for this example) from,say, +2**15 to -2**15 minus 1
( +32768 to -32767, because "0" takes one of the allowed values). Thus the
dynamic range available is about 90 dB (in power).
A 24 bit recorder can record values between +8388608 and - 8388607, or
about 138 dB.
Now a concert might have an average dynamic range of 20 or 30 dB, so this
seems like massive overkill. But I routinely see 40 dB or more in peak
dynamic range in concerts, and at home I record my kids with 60 dB or more
of peak dynamic range (I use good microphones!).
There are two things that "headroom" like 24 bit recording can give you.
First, you can set the average recording level safely at 15 or 20 dB below
clipping and be assured that you won't clip when the guy sitting next to
you let's out a very, very loud "WHHHOOOP!" (or claps right on top of the
microphone). You can digitally compress his peak without affecting the
music that is likely 10 or 15 dB down from that transient loud sound.
Second advantage is that you won't run into "bit noise" distortion caused
by the recording small numbers in the digitizer. I won't go into an overly
long discussion of this, but in a nutshell, "bit noise" is a distortion
that happens when the digital representation of waveform has a small enough
amplitude that when it is recorded ('digitized") to a string of numbers,
the numbers are small enough that the difference between, say, 100 and 101
is not as smooth a replica of the original sound as when it is 100000 going
to 100001. So when you go to mix it down to 16 bits, applying corrections
and selected compression to make a more listenable recording, you apply
math to small numbers and distortion can creep in.
I don't want to say that this is a big effect, because most people never
worry about it. And 16 bit recorders do just fine for most folks. But you
asked what 24 bit recording was good for.
Best wishes,
David Holtkamp
From: "Slipkid" <slipkid@voicenet.com>
Subject: european tours
Reply-To: "Slipkid" <slipkid@voicenet.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 01:10:15 -0500
has anyone here taped (or is planning to tape) any of these artists on their
recent tours? some of these artists will only be in europe/uk and i would
like to hookup with some traders across the pond
robin trower:
http://www.trowerpower.com/tours/current/index.html
porcupine tree:
http://www.porcupinetree.com/index2.cfm
glenn hughes:
http://www.glennhughes.com/tourography/tourlist.htm#soulmover2005
ian hunter:
http://www.ianhunter.com/tour.shtml
if you have something recent on these folks and you want to trade, please
drop me a line, loads to offer in return
thanks,
- jon -
slipkid@voicenet.com
From: Karl <karlmusic@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: WTD: Sony ECM-MS957 personal reviews
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 22:24:35 +1300
Hi, I've heard some great bootlegs made with the ECM-MS957 and am
thinking of buying one.
Does anyone here use it for bootlegging concerts? How do you find it?
Is it easy to mount? My only concern is that it looks a bit to big to
stealth tape with....
Any personal reviews of this microphone would be greatly appreciated.
Either through personal email on on DATheads.
Ow and I have a Sony TCD-D8, Core Sound Cardioids and a Sony ECM-717 at
the moment.
Thanks
-Karl
From: "Steve Savage" <juggleslugg@hotmail.com>
Subject: ISO-PRAXIS tapers for Columbus, OH (3/31/05) and Chicago, IL (4/2/05)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:18:12 -0500
Hey everyone,
Just wondering a couple of things... Does anyone know an official stance by
PRAXIS about taping? I know that they have allowed it it at Bonnaroo but
was't sure about any general policy. If I can do it, I will be recording
using a digital 8 camcorder.
Also, is anyone who is attending these shows planning on taping them? If you
are, please let me know. Even if I am able to video tape, I'd like a high
end audio source for my video since I don't have external mics.
Any response can be done offlist to juggleslugg at hotmail dot com.
Thanks,
Steve
PS- if you are into stoner rock at all (Kyuss, QOTSA, Monster Magnet,
etc...) check out www.kyussqotsa.com/forum.
From: Jah Rasta Fish <rastafishi@yahoo.com>
Subject: Let the DAT liquidation begin
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:24:26 -0800 (PST)
Well, now that I have my D-100 listed up on Ebay, the
next step is to liquidate this huge collection of
DAT's I have amassed. I was going to catalog it all
but it was simply too much to deal with, so I will be
selling them in lots of 10 tapes at a time.
Lot "A":
2 x Zonal 124 DAT (Smiling Assassins 3-14-03)
2 x TDK DA-R 120 DAT (Galactic 8-18-02 & Project Logic
6-7-02)
1 x Quantegy R-124 DAT (Garaj Mahal 9-21-02)
1 x 90m Apple Computer DDS (Club D'Elf 3-24-02)
1 x Sony DGP-60 DDS (Seth Yacavone Band 5-24-02)
3 x Maxell HS-4/60s DDS (WSP 11-14-01 & Eric Clapton
1-15-90)
Lot "B":
1 x Quantegy R-124 DAT (Ulu 11-6-02)
1 x Sony DG 90P DDS (Phish 11-30-97)
1 x TDK DC4-90 DDS (The Recipe 9-21-02)
2 x Maxell HS-4/60s DDS (Phish 3-1-97)
2 x TDK DA-R 120 DAT (Bela Fleck 8-13-02)
3 x Maxell HS-4/90s DDS (Trey 5-8-99, Phish 7-12-00, &
Phil & Phriends 4-17-99)
I would like to get $20 for each lot of 10 tapes, plus
$3 shipping. I really don't want to break them up, it
is far easier for me to keep them in lots of ten. I
will be listing several more of these groups of tapes
as I continue cleaning out my taping gear, they are
almost all two-pass tapes (recorded once and played
back once, then put into storage) and should all be
good candidates for re-use.
Also, I have a pair of CoreSound Cards (the standard
model, not the cheapies or the high-end) with battery
box if anyone is interested. I would let them go for
$130. Pretty sure I still have the removable clips
and the extra windscreens for them as well.
Thanks,
Brian
From: Stephen Bezruchka <sabez@u.washington.edu>
Subject: A Marantz in the Hand or an Edirol in the bush?
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:57:31 -0800 (PST)
I've appreciated others reviews and information on this list so decided to
share what I have learned.
Be the first kid on your block with one of these! Audio recording is
taking a big step with some good results.
Back in the fall, the Edirol R1 was announced and attracted a great deal
of attention with no commercial publicity, suggesting the recordists out
there were eager to try something new. This unit promised to record wav
and mp3 files with 24 and 16 bit word sizes and 44.1 kHz and various kbps
compression rates. People began ordering and some got their units early
this year.
I spent several months trying to decide if this unit was for me and Klay
Anderson reasoned that "since technology eats itself every 18 months so I
am sure that there is something on the horizon. How long are you willing
to wait for some vaporware at the price you are willing to pay with the
feature set you dreamed of that is right now discussed on a Tokyo golf
course?" I ordered one two months ago, and waited and waited, as
production has been delayed.
The R1 was bigger than the Sony M1 DAT that I have been using for years at
various efforts, from self-taping lectures, to taping speakers and live
music, to using it in Nepal to capture wild sound and people singing and
dancing. With a bevy of mics and techniques, it was amazing what the M1
cold do.
The feature set of the R1 lacked an ALC (automatic level control) which is
useful when you can't check the levels, and had many effect playback
features I would never use.
A week ago, as I was checking on my delayed order, the salesman again
suggested I look at the Marantz PMD 660. I'd dismissed his earlier
mention of it because I thought he was referring to the PMD 670, a large
unit, (Sony TC-D5M size or Tascam DAP1).
But I checked out the few details I could find on the web and switched my
order to the Marantz which came last night and delighted the kid on
Christmas Day in me that I had only experienced a few times as I approach
caducity. One time was getting a UHER Report 4400 in 1974 that I took to
Nepal, and another was the Sony Walkman WMD6C about 12 years later that
allowed me new versatility in Nepal. The DAT did it too. But the Marantz
is an incredible unit that has amazing capabilities.
The 660 is a tad bigger than the WMD6C in all directions, but about the
same weight and heft. That's big by M1 standards, with the R1 in the
middle.
The 660 is designed for field recording, incorporating wish lists from
many. So it has a pair of XLR connectors, switch able 48 V phantom, an
internal pair of mics, a small speaker, line in and out jacks, headphone
jack, and modern USB 2 and Compact Flash technology. Powered by 4 AA, you
can set it for alkaline or NiMH discharge profiles, and when the unit is
about to have a powerless death, you can set it to beep at you.
You can choose from ALC, manual gain control of each channel separately,
and can set the LED meters, which read each channel independently) to
either indicate only peak values or the bar (colored organe 6 dB or above
and red at over) to enable minimum current consumption. The meters are
ideally placed at the end of the unit so if worn vertically, can be easily
followed.
You record at 44.1 and 48 kHz 16 bit word wav files or 64 or 128 kbps mp3
files in either sampling frequency to CF or microdrive media. If you
record in mono, then file sizes are halved (unlike the R1 which duplicates
the signal to both channels, taking up more space).
There are 3 preset combinations of parameters so you can set one, say, for
stereo 48 kHz, 16 bit, manual level controls, another for mono mp3, ALC,
and a third for the built in mic and output to the speaker/headphones.
Changing presets is easy. The date and time is entered in each file, and
you can vary many other parameters including time to shut off, beeping
alerts, silent skip, auto mark, prerecord, etc. Incredible versatility
There is much editing on the fly you can do, marking points in files, and
then assembling them in virtual tracks for ENG, so you can have all your
actualities ready to go.
You can output via the line, via the USB (although the recorder needs to
be plugged into the AC then), or by putting the CF card into a reader.
Inputting files can be done by copying them to the CF in your computer,
providing you name them with the Machine ID and numbering system that the
card has been formatted with. That aspect is not as easy, I presume, as
with an iPOD (I've never used one).
Even the manual is pretty clear.
The deficiencies of the R1, to me, include no ALC, no visual calibration
of recording levels, and too many playback effects, metronome and tuner
that suggest this unit was designed for a budding musician. It is also
bigger than the M1, although 2 inches shorter than the PMD 660. As well
the 3.5 mm stereo mic jack with plug-in power is easy to use with such
mics, but limited for what the pro's use.
What I wish the Marantz had was a 3.5 mm stereo mic jack with plug in
power in addition, a limiter, and of course that it was smaller. But with
XLR hardware and running off 4 AAs (so you get long run times), I would
guess it could be shrunk eventually by as much as 50% in time. Some
tapers would like digital in. Yes, 24 bit words and 96 kHz, but probably
not for this kind of field unit although SoundDevices does that for a
price.
Sound? To my ears, this unit is great. If you use the -20dB mic
attenuator and crank up your output, there is some noise. It costs $50-60
more than the Edirol and is in stock now.
My applications will include recording lectures with a lav, although
planting a lav on someone and putting the recorder in his or her pocket
might produce bulge-gate, because it is much bigger than an M1. The
answer to that is to use a wireless body pack lav with a portable receiver
sitting with the 660. I've tried that and it works very well, especially
if you use Neutrik right-angled XLR's so they don't hang out of the bottom
and make a compact set up. This will allow creating small (mono) mp3
files of lectures that can be put on the web.
And then with a boundary mic, or interview mic, or shotgun or a pair of
phantom powered condensor mics there is a definite advance in portability
without needing extra power supplies etc.
So that is my quick look. Consider it.
Stephen
From: Alex Kim <alexdk@yahoo.com>
Subject: Anyone still trade on DAT? Looking for UK indie/britpop DAT tapers/traders....
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:34:36 -0800 (PST)
Hello-
I've recently (over the last few months) been trying
to re-establish trading contacts after being "retired"
for about 10 years. I've had trouble, however,
meeting people who can/want to trade on DAT...it seems
that those that record on DAT are more into trading
CDs and everyone else is using MD decks for recording.
Don't people record and trade DAT clones anymore?
People must! I don't mind trading CDs but would love
to trade on DAT! So, I thought I'd make a posting
here to see if I can find some DAT tapers/trades....
I'm into a lot of different things but I've focused on
masters of the following bands - no particular order
and not necessarily complete:
The Sundays
Trash Can Sinatras
Spiritualized/Spacemen 3/Sonic Boom/Spectrum
Verve/Richard Ashcroft
Wedding Present/Cinerama
Paul Weller/The Jam/Style Council
Slowdive/Mojave 3/Halstead/Goswell
Mazzy Star/Hope Sandoval
Belle & Sebastian/Looper
Morrissey/Smiths/Johnny Marr
Blur/Graham Coxon
Bluetones
Heavenly
Snow Patrol
Kasabian
Stone Roses/Ian Brown/John Squire/Seahorses
Boo Radleys
Charlatans
Chapterhouse
Cornershop/Clinton
G500/Luna/Damon & Naomi
Salad
Sleeper
Elastica
Echo/Electrafixion/Ian McCulloch
Frente/Splendid
Jesus & Mary Chain & related
Jane's Addiction
Love
Lush/Sing-Sing
My Bloody Valentine
Ocean Colour Scene
early Oasis
Pixies
Pulp
Portishead
Ride/Gardner/Bell/Animalhouse/Hurricane
Stereolab
shoegazers...britpop..UK indie...etc, etc, etc.
In most cases I have masters of pretty much all those
bands and more. I'm a California based trader...Since
94, I've been using a D7 + 2 ECM-77B mics. I also
have the ability to defeat SCMS so I can essentially
make clones of anything I have on DAT or CD. I can
trade on DDS (60m or 90m), SP or LP mode - although SP
preferred. Home decks: Sony PCM-R300 & DTC-690.
If interested, please email me for a full trade list
in excel. Non-DAT tapers welcomed as well.
Thanks for the time, Alex
Alexander Kim
alexdk@yahoo.com
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